All Aboard the Martin Samuel Express

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In the week of the Manchester derby, Chelsea v Liverpool and England's debut under Fabio Capello it's only fitting that we call upon The Times' own Martin Samuel to sift through a big week in English football. We also look at the issue of the Premier League moving abroad (at least part-time) and - surprise! - we don't all universally condemn it.

Sven Goran Eriksson isn't on Martin's Christmas list and it shows. Martin reckons he just got bored with England and that's why now, at City, he's doing things he couldn't achieve with the Three Lions. I'm not sure I fully buy into it, and I'm sure Guillem doesn't. On the United end, Martin points out that their four league defeats this season all came in the absence of Wayne Rooney, which may explain events on Sunday. He also flags up one of Chelsea's biggest problems: their inability to beat the big 3. And he suggests that Lampard and Ballack have a more difficult time playing together than Lampard and Gerrard. I tend to agree.
On the age-old Lampard/Gerrard issue, Guillem reckons that, in fact, they can't really work together. Martin, unsurprisingly, begs to differ and chalks up some of their difficulties in the past to... (you guessed it) Sven. I wisely avoid that debate, but I have to say Martin brings a big smile to my face when he praises Javier Mascherano - one of my favorites - to high heaven. He also, rather interestingly, argues that there is no English equivalent to Makelele, which may not please Owen Hargreaves or Gareth Barry, but I certainly see where he's coming from.
Guillem is on the Premier League Roadshow bandwagon - a great advert for English football and a wonderful moneyspinner - I'm not so sure. But, if it does go ahead, I think you need to mandate some big concessions on the part of the clubs, such as subsidized tickets for young supporters, better facilities, more sensible kickoff times and grassroots investment. It's not just about giving the fans (though that's important too), it's a smart business decision.
I'm running out of space here, so I'll just tell you that we've also got Bill's stat and Quick Hits and would love to hear from you below. Get interactive!

Comments

[Faithy]

With reference to my earlier post regarding deeper defending due to greater uncertainty caused by changes in the offside rule.

I would argue that this is why small, quick strikers are also a dying breed. There is no space behind defences these days and if you are only bringing pace and finishing to the table then you are only going to be playing a limited role in games.

Players like Owen, Bellamy and Defoe would have been considered useful a few years ago are now becoming the betamax of football players

[Julius Blumfeld]

Off (or ante) topic but re the Deloittes report, what's the betting that when Chelsea announce their results next week, they announce a profit? In which case all the "Chelsea are a club on steroids" stuff will be history and RA will have the last laugh for having made a damn good investment!

[Gabriele Marcotti]

1. Medhi - I'm sorry I don't understand your point. Makelele "holds" his poistion in front of the back four. I'm not sure why this term - "holding midfielder" - is so upsetting to you. As for Owen, I don't think 6 goals in 16 games necessarily makes you a flop. It's just that, with injuries and the somewhat one-dimensional style to his game, he's not the player he was.
2. Pork Romeo - I think it's good for everyone to remember just how young Rooney (and Ronaldo for that matter) is. Movement off the ball is essential (and it doesn't just mean working hard) and I think it's one of the things Rooney does best.
3. Asher - Makelele is nearly 35, you need to take that into account. I do agree thought that Mascherano has a better range of passing and, one day, could surpass Makelele. In more general terms, players develop in a way that fills the needs of the teams they play for. So if you take Makelele, it can be argued that he became a holding midfielder because there was a need for that sort of player. I think in general, because traditionally most English sides did not play a diamond but rather had a flat four in midfield, the better players naturally became box-to-box types. That doesn't mean that they can't adjust though or that it will always be that way.
4.Francois - What he meant was that they don't have the technique to play a certain brand of football. It doesn't mean they're technically poor necessarily, but that, perhaps, they are not well-suited to a certian kind of highly tactical patient build-up approach.
5. Colsyd- How many times have Lampard and Gerrard played together in central midfield with no holding midfielder behind them? Probably not many. So, right now, I don't think there's any empirical evidence either way. As for my point about the windfall, I thought that catering to the fans would be no just smart business in the long-term, it would have also brought some good PR, something they could really do with now.
6. Jeeve - I concede that perhaps "vagrant" is a bit of a strong word. But what I mean by that is "lost soul". The fact that, after Madrid, none of the big four would touch him says a lot. The guy has been through a lot in terms of injuries and, right now, he's not where he was. And I'm not sure he ever will be.
7. Faithy - You make some interesting points. However, I'd argue that traditionally English clubs by-passed the midfield (with some obvious exceptions) and that's why there was no natural holding midfield role. Although, again, it comes down to how we define it. Nobby Stiles was, basically, a holding midfielder, at least for England, wasn't he?
Also, I don't think playing that position requires good technique. It requires, above all, brains and tactical sense. Carsley is a solid holding midfielder for example and he's not particularly gifted in technical terms.

[Faithy]

Gents, I'd love your thoughts on why the concept of holding midfielder is a relatively new concept in England?

I have a few theories on this one -

1) Traditionaly English defences pushed up, condensing the midfield, therefore the midfield was always quite flat, with central midfielders being allrounders. Changes to the offside rule has made this a bit risky, therefore teams are defending a lot deeper and thus the space in midfield is much deeper than it used to be and needs to be staggered with different types of players e.g. holding players, playmakers etc.

2) Weather conditions in Latin countries have never allowed defending high up the pitch for any great length of time, therefore the concept of a staggered midfield has always been around. There are more latin coaches/players in the premier league now therefore this style of play is what they are used to?

3) English coaches have been a bit slow on the uptake.

4) Playing the pivot requires good technique with quick feet and sound positional sense. As has been well documented on the blog, English players aren't exactly pulling up trees in this department therefore coaches have tactically masked this this problem.

[kev]

What high quality comments we have here: 'Owen and Rooney are rubbish; Sven achieved the best results in England's history.' Get back to fiddling with your gameboys kids...

What is Trapattoni and Capello's relationship like, do they get on?

[Zulfy Ali]

Guillem,

Do you happen to know what Juande Ramos thinks of Jaime O'Hara?
I think this kid can be an absolute star given the chance. Wonderful passing range, short and long, and can put in a tackle.
Is very much the continental style midfielder that we've lacked at international level.

[wilf]

I agree Michael Owen doesn't belong on the same page as Raul. He's been European player of the year for a start.
Leaving aside your daft comments about Owen the notorious troublemaker, I've listened to you two in your various incarnations for years. My impression is (like many other foreigners) you both largely appreciate the 'spirit' of English football, but don't really rate much else.

This pains me as I'm an oldie, and remember when Malcolm Allison would talk about continental football as peasant football, and the likes of Forest, Villa and Spurs would play Barcelona and Juventus without a hint of inferiority. Then came Heysel and the rest is history. Inglaterra no es el inventor del fútbol, es el fútbol, as Ballague never said.

Sadly I think we're now a third world football nation, our only worth comes from bought in talent, and Michel Platini gets more worked up about it than the downtrodden, apathetic natives. Moving games abroad is just the final nail in the coffin. Martin Samuel says all that needs to be said on the subject in his column today (excellent as usual). Part of me thinks good riddance, I'll watch rugby instead.

By the way, is Capello popular with anyone? Real Madrid are the latest club rejoicing at their liberation from the 'Italian dictat'.

[Jeeve Gupta]

Enjoyed this week's podcast, especially Martin Samuel's grumpy but(mostly)spot on contributions. But why did Gab cast Michael Owen as a "footballing vagrant" - 3 clubs in a professional career spanning 11 years hardly makes him king of the gypsies.

[ColSyd]

Great pod this week, fellas. Martin Samuel was full of insight. However, I'm not entirely convinced by his defence of Lampard/Gerrard on the basis that the problems to date are simply due to confusion over roles/responsibilities. How long does it take to sort that out? 5 minutes, if you're playing Sunday league - so why does it take five years in the context of England? Gerrard is a great player, but at the highest level his pass selection can be poor, and he gives the ball away too cheaply as a result. Lampard also has great strengths, but responding quickly to the consequences of losing posession is not one of them. Is this a collective weakness worth living with, given the positives they bring? Personally, no. I think it represents a fatal weakness when you get to the sharp end of Euro championships and world cups. However, this begs the question of what is the alternative? I'd probably go with Gerrard/Hargreaves from the current crop of players - but what I'm really looking for is Gerrard/Viera or Gerrard/Keane.

On another point, is it just me or does 'roadshowing' a set of premiership matches round the globe represent a small step towards the holy grail/last nail in the coffin (depending on your view) of selling a franchaise and relocating a club overseas permanently. And Gab, clubs have had plenty of windfall gains over the years through TV money to do something about ticket prices, and have responded by pocketing the money or inflating player salaries - so why do you think this injection of cash should be any different?

[francis cousins]

"Privately Baldini has said English players lack the necessary technique". If by privately you mean telling every national newspaper, yeah!

These comments strike me as strange. Firstly, it surely can't have come as a shock to Capello and crew what sort of players England have available. Secondly (and you can tell me different) unlike Sven, Fabio doesn't strike me as the type who's happy to just pick up the money; he would only take the job if he thought he could achieve something worthwhile, such as get further than the quarters.

And for anyone who says we don't have the players, I can only point you again to the winners of Euro 2004 and the CL the year after - largely moderate players but well organised.

[Asher Gilani]

Sven might have got bored but that certainly doesn't mean that he didn't get the best results in England's history and certainly almost the best results possible for that side. I can't believe Martin Samuel thinks that he had the players because the Euro 2008 qualifiers clearly proved that this was not a golden generation and that Steven Gerrard and Frank Lampard are not the players people think they are (at least not at international level).

Regarding Makelele, Gab, do you think that if a player is said to be underrated so much, he becomes over rated? I mean yeah Real lost when he left but that was because they didn't bother replacing Makelele. I reckon that they would have won a number of titles if any holding midfielder had been playing, even someone like Gilberto. He is a good player but he doesn't have hargreaves's pace nor does he have mascherano's passing range. He just seems to sit there and kill space and is praised to high heaven for it. It is true that England don't produce any holding midfielders nor do they have any playmakers. They just seem to produce box to box players (think gerrard, lampard, parker, reo coker, johnson, bowyer, ) whose hustle and bustle game doesn't seem to fit in with international football. There seems to be a new breed of player which is the playmaker with an engine like modric, anderson and sneijder and England are being left behind in this department too. Will England ever progress without producing the type of players that have known to succeed at the international level?

[Sat]

This new format wont work as it being suggested now. They need to move it to the end or beginning of the season. With top playing bottom, 2nd v 19th and so on. It needs to correlate with the competition. It should not be allowed to distort it.

BUT even if it was that format i wouldn't want it. First, the local fans will want to see those important games. It'll be very hard for many if they're anywhere but in England. Secondly, it takes yet another chunk of what little purity is left in this game.

Secondly. Lampard and Gerrard have proven time and again they can't play together. And it can't all be put down to the system and manager. If they're as good as they are meant to be then they should've been able to work things out on who should drop back and who should go forward at one point or the other. Either they're not that good, compatible or they were both just too egotistical for one to take command. Plus Gerrard isn't known for his disciplined positional sense - AND HE'S MEANT TO BE THE ONE WHO CAN TACKLE (BETTER THAN LAMPARD ANYWAY).

Oh, and Rooney can play up front 'on his own'. As long as there's pace and support from the flanks (and centre). So Joe Cole playing behind him shouldn't be a problem if the likes of Bentley, Young, Agbonlahor, Lennon are able to support (like Ronaldo does).

[Pork Romeo]

Don’t English journalists ever get tired of being Wayne Rooney apologists? Wayne Rooney is not great. Not even close. I enjoyed listening to Samuel read some pathetic statistics to support this increasingly impossible charade.

Rooney makes space. Wonderful, so does Emile Heskey.

Wayne Rooney works hard. He is a regular Duracell bunny on the pitch. In fact, he reminds me very much of an English Dirk Kuyt. Lots of running around, but not much in the way of goals scored.

In contrast, Ronaldo has a few bad matches, and the media starts branding him. Rooney has had four bad years, and you all still coddle him.

[Mehdi]

If Makelele held his position he'd never win the ball! This silly term was invented by the English media and has crept into the game in recent years. As you know it's not used in Italy, Spain, Germany or anywhere else.

As for Owen's omission I'm guessing this was a case of Capello not bowing to reputation. Why does everyone make a song and dance about his goalscoring record for England? At European and World Cup final level he's a flop :

1998 WC – 4 games, 2 goals
2000 EC – 3 games, 1 goal
2002 WC – 5 games, 2 goals
2004 EC – 4 games, 1 goal

[Gabriele Marcotti]

1. Victoria - I agree that many Italians (especially Juve and Roma supporters) don't like Capello. And yeah, it's certainly hypocritical to some degree, especially when the English press reaction wasn't that negative. I do think many were surprised by the way people banged on and on about Michael Owen being left out. I don't think it takes a genius to figure out that, given the formations Capello chose to play (with one striker), it was unlikely that Owen would feature.
2. Mehdi - I'm not an etymologist, but, as I understand it, "holding" midfielder means that the midfielder "holds" his position (i.e. not the ball). In that sense, Makelele is very much a holding midfielder because he rarely ventures forward.

[Mehdi]

Why on Earth do you insist on using the nonsensical term holding midfielder instead of defensive midfielder? There is no holding involved in the so called Makelele role. His job is to win the ball and pass it to a team-mate, his job is not to hold onto the ball and conduct play which is what the term holding midfielder implies.

[victoria]

Gab didn't give the promised Italian reaction to the England game, but I've been following the coverage of Capello in the Italian press online.
I can only judge from the Italian papers I've read, but they seem to be preoccupied with how the press are treating him (those evil English tabloids) and exagerrating the level of hostility he's received.

Reading the comments posted on websites like Gazzetta dello Sport, sadly 99% of them are completely ignorant. Italian fans seem to be full of nationalistic outrage that the arrogant English aren't worshipping everything Capello does.

I don't think his reception's been THAT bad - very respectful actually (England were poor against the Swiss and some of his selections bizarre, yet I felt the press were bending over backwards to find something positive). Most Italians can't stand him anyway, the hypocrites. If they're upset at his reception so far, god help us when he starts receiving real flak.