Lunchin' with Luca and Lamps...

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Guillem and I go on the road again - well, Beauchamp Street anyway - and grab some lunch with Chelsea past and present in the form of Gianluca Vialli and Frank Lampard. Believe it or not, they'd never sat down to chew the fat together, which means that if you listen in, you'll witness history in the making.
Following a big FA Cup weekend, we call upon our old buddy Mark Pougatch and he immediately crosses swords with Guillem who asks "if clubs don't respect the FA Cup, why should we"?
We rumble through our Quick Hits and Bill Edgar tells us how League 2 could achieve something unprecedented in 350 attempts...

Over lunch, Luca details his experiences in going abroad, while Frank argues that having a group of foreign-based players would probably help the England side. They also reflect on how part of the price you pay for celebrity is that, when you screw up, you often become a "bad person", not just a "bad player" or "bad manager".
We hail United's resounding victory and I'm in a bit of a minority in suggesting that Nani probably didn't need to rub Arsenal's noses in it. I don't have a problem with skill, but if he's so confident in his ability let's see him try that when the scores are level, not when he's 4-0 up.
Guillem says there was "nothing special" about Barnsley who "defended poorly", though he admits they showed a lot of "heart". I think he's being rather mean, when a side at their level knocks out Liverpool, they deserve credit. Mark's with me, pointing out that they could have just given up and played the part of the gracious losers or been happy with a replay.
Good news for the Rafa Fan Club: Guillem argues that no matter how bad things get, he won't be sacked this season. Mark's not so convinced (and neither am I).
We do want to hear from you and I'll do my best to interact with you if grace us with your comments below. Can't speak for Guillem and Bill, but I promise to make their life hell until they get off their rear ends and show you, our treasured listeners, the respect you deserve.

Comments

[jay]

guillem i have to say i'm surprised by your comments, you reckon arsenal to be a 1 man team & mentally weak!

funny as cesc hasn't performed too well since his injury in mid november, not to mention the fact that we have scored many goals from crosses into the box which is a different way of playing

ps. One league loss all season is defintely that of a team who are mentally weak, i mean how did they achieve all those come backs with such a weak mentality.

[Benji]

I think points about Lampard's "primadonna" behaviour refer to his initial contempt for any questioning about his England place, ignoring Joey Barton after he made the squad and then ciculating the story that he was in fact injured when he was dropped.

[Faithy]

Robert Styles: Fair dues: No players are happy to be criticised. Maybe I should say that it is fair to judge a player on what he does on the pitch rather than make a supposition on his mental state.

The point is do you want to read some tactical analyis about what happened on the pitch or some hack's piece of cod pyschology?

Judging by your post I could take a guess

[Gabriele Marcotti]

1. Asher - I'm not sure the comparison between Ronaldo and Raul is apt. Raul was tremendous for a long time, but I don't think there was ever a sustained period when he could claim to be the best in the world. I guess they're two different skill sets.
2. Scott - I take your point about Denmark and Sweden. That's my opinion. And if Smith wants to repeat his, that's fine. But what he can't do is say things which are blatantly untrue -- like saying Peiro' kicked the ball out of the goalkeeper's hands. (If you haven't seen it, go on Youtube and check it out, it will only take a minute. Brian has his views, I have mine. To my knowledge he never submitted his dossier of "evidence" to UEFA. And, if he did, they chose not to proceed. But the bottom line is there is a big difference between calling somebody corrupt (which is what's being done with this Spanish referee) and believing that, on the pitch, Denmark and Sweden settled for a 2-2 draw which suited everyone (as I believe). The latter is NOT a crime, the former is.
Why should Juventus be stripped of their 1996 title? Do you know something I don't?
Oh and BTW, the referee did report several players for their behaviour in that game. UEFA chose not to take action. I suspect in this day and age, they would have.
3. Craig - Ramos turned Spurs around very quickly after Jol's departure (and I agree with you: the way it was handled was shameful). That's overachievement in my book.
As for Grant, go back and read what was said about him when he took over. Throw in the difficulty of replacing a legend, long-term injuries to Terry and Lampard, losing four guys to the African Nations' Cup and, yeah, I think he's overachieved given where the club was when he took over.
4. Kap - Lampard talked about the benefits of going abroad, he talked about losing weight and his own development as a player, he related some neat anecdotes about playing with Paolo Di Canio... What short-comings was he supposed to talk about.
5. Chelsea - I don't know if it's reversed. But the key point is that the criticism isn't personal, it's about performance.
6. Faithy - I agree.
7. Robert Styles - Remind us what his primadonna reaction was?
8. Victoria - I don't think Italian journalists are necesarily more knowledgeable. Some are. Some are not. The tradition of having attractive women on TV is a long-standing one and one which I think is rather stupid. But most of them (with one very notable exception) are not journalists or pundits.

[victoria]

You talked about how the Italian journalists are more knowledgable than the English ones, but what I notice in Italy is the preponderance of facially-advantaged female interviewers. I'm sure Vialli was often blown away by their knowledge of different tactical systems.

[Asher Gilani]

I think that Benzema's goal yesterday added another £10 million to his price tag.

[Robert Styles]

Faithy, "Players are happy to be judged on what happens on the pitch." Well actually Fat Frank isn't as shown by his primadonna reaction when McClaren decide to finally leave him out. I hear he has 10 gcses. He cut out the tokens from the cereal boxes and sent them off himself.

[Faithy]

In my opinion what Gab and Guillem were trying to do in this interview was use the experiences of Lampard and Vialli to hold a mirror up to ourselves as consumers of media. Is what we are currently being served what we want and if it is what does that say about ourselves?

Players are happy to be judged on what happens on the pitch. For example he missed this penalty because he chose the wrong option or hit it to close to the keeper. At the moment the English media would say he missed the penalty because he is mentally weak or arrogant or his private life is in crisis.

Judging by some of the posts, some have missed the point.

[Kap]

Boys, any thoughts on the man child Karim Benzema? I had read a lot about him and have to say he lived up to the hype last night. Only 20 but had what some suggest is the best centre back pair in Europe running scared. WOuld appreciate your thoughts as I have not been as impressed since I saw Ronaldo in his prime.

[Chelsea]

I was interested in the comments about the difference between the media ferocity and stress of playing in Italy and England (Frank seemed surprised) and how this is reversed for the national teams. How do you explain this contradiction? Interest in the national team much bigger in England perhaps?

[Kap]

To answer Gab:

"2. Kap - I don't think Lampard said nothing. What did you want him to say?"

I don't know, maybe something interesting or insightful. His contribution to the chat was mostly Beavis and Butthead level yeahs and huh huh huhs to anything Vialli said. The one thing he did say was about press treatment of England players. Play another record Frank as you've been moaning about it ever since you first copped a bit over the release of the "We got knocked out of the World Cup, I played rubbish, Here's my book" book. For a player who trades on his goody, wholesome image you could have pressed him on his own failures to live up to it. But that would mean you're not so welcome at the Cobham complex...

[Craig]

Gab, do you really think that Avram Grant and Juande Ramos are overachieving? Chelsea finished 2nd last season, got the the semi finals of the European Cup and won both domestic cups, whilst Spurs finished fifth two years running. Both have significantly strengthened in key areas from last season too. Whilst they are both doing decent jobs, I think it's unfair to suggest they are overachieving. I feel sorry for Martin Jol. There seems to be this perception that he did a terrible job at Spurs and that he produced a fat, lazy, unbalanced squad. Only a dodgy lasagne stopped them from qualifying for the Champions League. The Spurs board completely undermined the bloke and prevented him from addressing the deficiencies in his squad. Juande Ramos is doing a good job, I like him and I think he could well get Spurs to qualify for Europe and win a cup but he's doing no more than you'd expect from a man who has won the last two UEFA Cups.

Avram Grant is operating with quite possibly the greatest squad in the history of the game in terms of quality in depth. They could easily put out two teams that would qualifty for Europe (1. Cech, Beletti, Carvalho, Alex, Bridge, Malouda, Essien, Lampard, J. Cole, Drogba, Kalou; 2. Cudicini, Ferreira, Terry, Ben Haim, A. Cole, Wright Phillips, Makelele, Ballack, Mikel, Anelka, Shevcenko, and that's leaving out the likes of Pizarro, Sidwell and Sinclair - players who would get in most top-10 sides!) Abramovich made Mourinho's job look hard at times, but in terms of managment, it really really doesn't get easier than that. He's done a decent job in steadying the ship but no better than you would expect any decent manager to do. It's much easier to work for men you have the support of than ones who seek to undermine you.

[scott]

You don't have any proof for a Sweden Denmark stitch-up, but it hasn't stopped you from repeating it on several occasions.

"If anyone has any proper evidence, I'm sure they would have brought it to UEFA's attention. And I'm sure they would have at least written about it in the media (citing facts and documents, not just hearsay"

So you are saying Glanville's reports are rubbish then (that's my source not Tommy Smith), because what he reported was rather more than hearsay. You'll have to take it up with him, I'm sure the Times will give you his number.

I think the key point on UEFA is twelve years after the fact. Woo-hoo! And only because of a court case nothing to do with them. That involved a Spanish ref too.

You surely jest on re-opening the case, they'd have to dig up the protagonists.

I still don't understand why Juventus haven’t been stripped of their 96 CL title. Or rather I do.

"Also, you might think it's funny that Shankly, Smith and others manhandled the referee at the final whistle. I'd suggest they were lucky. If you did that today, you'd be getting a long ban."

Why did the ref not report them do you think?

[Asher Gilani]

I wasn't trying to prove Ronaldo's greatness to you but rather using his stats to show everyone else who might have doubts his unbelievable record whilst also highlighting how all his injuries perhaps adds to Raul's greatness. Do you think that Raul's longevity and leadership put him in Ronaldo's bracket or just slightly below?

[Gabriele Marcotti]

1. Scott - I'm very familiar with Brian's allegations. But it does strike me as curious that this evidence wasn't presented to UEFA or that UEFA took no action. And before you suggest that UEFA never take action, it's not true: Nottingham Forest were the victims of match-fixing (against Anderlecht as I recall) and that match was overturned twelve years after the fact. Nothing is stopping Liverpool from reopening the case.
The fact that Bill Shankly kept repeating that the referee was bribed is - frankly - immaterial. People in Italy will be repeating until their death that the referee (Byron Moreno) in the match against South Korea at the 2002 World Cup was bent: but, without proof, you're whistling the wind.
What bugs me a bit is how one-sided these accusations are. I watched highlights of that match just this morning. I was expecting to see Peiro "kick the ball out of the goalkeeper's hands" as Smith alleges. But that's not what happened: the pictures show the keeper bouncing the ball and Peiro (who came from behind him) flickiing it away as it hits the ground. Not quite the same thing, is it?
Also, you might think it's funny that Shankly, Smith and others manhandled the referee at the final whistle. I'd suggest they were lucky. If you did that today, you'd be getting a long ban.
Bottom line is, I don't know what happened. And neither do you. If anyone has any proper evidence, I'm sure they would have brought it to UEFA's attention. And I'm sure they would have at least written about it in the media (citing facts and documents, not just hearsay). But none of that happened. All you get is opinion and a certain version of history. I don't see how that does anyone any good.

[Patrick]

Question for Gab and Guillem: do you guys agree with Lamps' thinking that the personal nature of england criticism will worsen in time? It's a depressing thought. Great chat so far btw.

[Craig]

Guillem, having a different opinion to most is not brown-nosing; I disagree with many of the newspapers on a regular basis etc if you read my comments on this blog. It's not easier to argue that Cristiano Ronaldo hasn't been as good this season as last season, or that Lampard and Gerrard can play together, that Rooney can play lone striker (I argued this before the Arsenal game). I don't prefer to go with the tide, I try look at things objectively and I don't think Benitez has made any progess in the league since coming to Liverpool, in three and a half years. I have doubts about whether he will ever be able to break the United/Chelsea/Arsenal triopoly, regardless of time and money, and that is backed up by the facts. You have to admit that for a manager that won league titles in Spain with Valencia, his failure to make progress in England has been disappointing. It's not that he's not won it, it's that he's not made progress at all. He is perenially chopping and changing and searching for answers; the team that started last night featured only three players that started the Champions League final in 2005, and those were there long before Benitez arrived. Regardless of the tint in your specs, you have to admit his transfer dealings have been mediocre at best.

Gerard Houllier was sacked despite winning more trophies than Rafa, spending less money and finishing higher in the league. Yes, he won an FA Cup but that is par for the course for a team like Liverpool, and one completely fluked Champions League (should have gone out to Olympiakos and Juventus) playing "faeces on a stick" football when not competing on any other front is not a great success. If Arsenal, Manchester United and Chelsea gave up on the league in January every season and concentrated solely on Europe they would have won it on several occasions. It's no coincidence that the two sides resting their most important players beat the two sides competing in a gruelling and epic title race in the semis last year.

I am by no means fickle, I posted a comment on this blog criticising Rafa when they were going well earlier in the season, and my opinion of him hasn't changed. As a Manchester United fan, I quite like Rafa being in charge of Liverpool as I don't think they will win the league with him in charge, but if I was a Liverpool fan I would be crying out for Mourinho.

[Scott]

Oh and Guillem, did Ortiz de Mendibil (the ref in the Inter game) have a reputation in Spain? From searching google he went on to be a Spanish Andy Gray! Bill Shankly called it his worse experience in football, and allegedly kicked him off the pitch (him and Tommy Smith in a pincer movement).

[Scott]

"the simple fact of the matter is that nobody provided any kind of evidence. So some of them just go on repeating the same crap over and over again and, just because Tommy Smith says something, then it's supposedly true."

Bill Shankly and the rest of the team thought the same.
And most famously (as you must surely know Gab) Brian Glanville, who provided quite a lot of evidence. Unless you're saying your Times colleague was talking nonsense?

[guillem balague]

Craig, so you have fallen on the trap of the English media to blame everything on the manager then? And since when having an opinion different to most is brown-nosing? You obviously prefer to go with the tide, much cosier. And disappointingly too you have as little memory as many football fans. So what you saying is that if in four years in charge of a club a manager has not won the league he has to be sacked? Never mind about the Champions League, FA cup, etc... How fickle can some of you be!

[Gabriele Marcotti]

1. Craig - I don't remember saying that Arsenal had more strength in depth than United. I really don't. Up front perhaps, in terms of a genuine centerforward, but that's it. In terms of which Gooners would get into United' starting XI... I'd take Sagna over Brown (though not over Gary Neville at his best... but will he ever get back to his best?)... Clichy and Evra is very close. I'd take Cesc over any of United's central midfielders and I'd find it difficult to keep Adebayor out of the side (maybe move Rooney to the left in place of Giggs and stick Adebayor up front)... Ferdinand and Vidic may be slightly better as a partnership than Kolo Toure and Gallas, but the latter two are (marginally) better as individuals, IMHO...
2. Kap - I don't think Lampard said nothing. What did you want him to say?
3.Asher - You don't need to convince me about Ronaldo's greatness. What I would say is that the year at Barcelona and his first season at Inter he was out of this world (probably at PSV as well). At Real Madrid, when he was a 20+ a season goalscorer in La Liga he was merely outstanding.

[Craig]

Asher - people are blaming Benitez because it's his fault his weakened teams can't be relied on, and that he fails to acknowledge this and refuses to pick his best team for the vast, vast majority of games. If you agree that Kuyt is poor then you must acknowledge that he is a Benitez failure. He cost £10m for God's sake. His biggest crime as far as Kuyt is concerned, is that he plays the donkey when he clearly has a better player on the bench in Crouch. If you can't identify a decent squad player for that sort of money then you aren't a great manager. Every manager has their transfer failings but Rafa has far more than he does success. Rafa has spent a lot of money in the transfer market, and that he CHOOSES to spend it on 10 rubbish players rather than 3 good ones is his fault. What's the point in buying these guys?! You don't have to spend an awful lot to get decent quality - and before you argue that Fergie does this then consider that football existed before 1992, and that he built his first title winning sides on a shoe-string. United are able to splash out occasionally because he built them into what they are now, and players like Ronaldo, Nani, Anderson, Tevez, Evra, Vidic all joined for fees that aren't beyond the range of Liverpool. Wenger has also demonstrated that money isn't the be all and end all, as has David Moyes.

[Asher Gilani]

Why on earth are people blaming Benitez for the loss against Barnsley (Guillem's going to love this)? The team he put out was very strong and you could argue that Reina, Torres and Gerrard were the only proper first team players who were missing. Benitez has been unlucky over the past few years because he didn't get enough money to sign quality players as well as a couple of decent backups (this year he signed torres and benayoun and babel is one for the future) and had to go for a lot of squad players like pennant and kuyt who is arguably the worst striker in the top 10, maybe 15. He even said last year that Liverpool were a couple of years behind Man Utd and Chelsea and that it would be realistically impossible to compete with them until that period of time.

I think that this injury for ronaldo puts raul's greatness in to perspective (guillem will love this as well). Here's a guy who's been in the Real first team for about 13 years and has been near the top of his form for 10 or 11 of them and throughout all this time he has never incurred a serious injury. There is no doubt however who is the greater player as Ronaldo's goalscoring accomplishments are just awesome.

226 goals in 310 games at club level (with numerous games being played just after returning from injury) and 62 goals in 97 appearances for Brazil is staggering. For me he is almost George Best like in the sense that he won't be remembered amongst the top 5 maybe top 3 players of all time because he didn't play enough.

[Kap]

To quote Gab:

"I much prefer a guy who admits there are some things that he won't talk about, than a person who'll agree to talk about anything but then ends up saying effectively nothing."

...a bit like Lampard.

Still, you live and learn eh?

[Craig]

Guillem, please stop brown-nosing Benitez, he'll be gone soon and he probably won't get another job in English football, where you do most of your work so there's really no point losing your credibility by deflecting the blame for this sorry mess. "The players should have been good enough to beat Barnsley", yes, but they have shown time and time again that they aren't necessarily good enough to be trusted without the likes of Gerrard and Torres to bail them out. This is because Benitez has been absolutely, unbelievably terrible in the transfer market. He's bought poor quality players, and the only successes he's had in the transfer market have been obvious targets (with the exception of Agger) that cost a lot of money. The fact that he can't field a weakened team against second-rate opposition is due to his poor signings and lack of foresight. He doesn't inspire confidence through his team selections and seems to have been looking for answers on the domestic front for 3 years. I don't think it's possible to win the league, or indeed make progress, when you change literally 5-10 of your squad every year. They may well get past Inter but I don't believe that even they can fluke their way to another final.

Gab, will you accept now that United have not only a better first team than Arsenal but also greater strength in depth? Also will you accept that very few of their players would get into the United starting XI? Even Cesc wouldn't get in now his goal scoring run has ended, you would have to be a fool to argue that he would get in over Anderson after getting bossed by him in two games now. As for Hleb, I fail to see how he offers more than Nani or Ronaldo. Even Nani, who is clearly not the finished article yet, is incredibly productive, and if United didn't squander so many of the chances he creates he would be even more so. Toure and Gallas missed having some protection from the full backs but they still were woeful and I think we saw which is the better centre-back pairing. Obviously one game doesn't make them a bad side but they're top of the league by virtue of punching above their weight and United dropping silly points.

[Gabriele Marcotti]

1. Scott - People point out that Liverpool players accused the referee of being bent. But the simple fact of the matter is that you're innocent until proven guilty. And for all the talk coming from Liverpool players at the time, the simple fact of the matter is that nobody provided any kind of evidence. So some of them just go on repeating the same crap over and over again and, just because Tommy Smith says something, then it's supposedly true.
2. Kap - Vialli didn't say he "never said what he thought". He said there were situations where, out of respect, you might not give your opinion. I actually think that's an honest answer. Especially since - as an example - he used the Gerrard/Lampard issue, with Lampard sitting right there. I much prefer a guy who admits there are some things that he won't talk about, than a person who'll agree to talk about anything but then ends up saying effectively nothing.
BTW, these aren't straight interviews, we're not there in Jeremy Paxman roles and we're not there in a court of law. We're there to chat about football in a relaxed setting. It's supposed to something different from the usual Q & A... sorry you don't like it, plenty of people do.

[guillem balague]

Dave, I am not jealous at all. But if managers do not use their best teams to play the FA Cup, why do you give the competition so much respect? As Tom Dart says (I guess he is also promoting a pointless campaign or something) the excitement of the FA Cup comes from the draw more than from most games as results are quite predictable. Also, if you hear the podcast properly I say the FA Cup is not going to mean the end of Benitez, so I don't see the link between his future and me respecting the competition.

[Kap]

What's the point of interviewing players (Or ex in the case of Vialli) who admit on record that they never say what they think to the press for fear of offending fellow professionals? I know that Gab is big mates with him but really, what a waste of time. And my god how full of it is Lampard? I'd read somewhere he was meant to be intelligent but boy are the standards dropping if he is considered to be one of the brighter footballers of the day. His lack of self awareness is worthy of a Shakespeareian comedy character. Also maybe it's best Gab and Guillem avoid chatting to anyone with Liverpool or Chelsea connections as those chats have been toe curling sycophantic.

[tracey]

What, no comment from cuddly Guillem on relegation threatened Bolton's 1-0 thrashing of champion's league place contenders Athletico? What was his assertion about the strength in depth of Spanish football versus English again?

Bolton may get well beaten away in Madrid, but I hope Ballague finally belts up about this (fat chance).. The FA cup and Europe proves anyone can beat anyone on their day, and the death of competitive football has been exaggerated.

Btw, those Lamps interview pics; were you all having a bad jumper face-off or something?

[Scott]

Has there been any reflection in Italy on the only previous Liverpool v Inter tie? And is it acknowledged there that Inter gained their European success through bribery, or don't they care?

On Frank Lampard, he may be a nice chap in person I don't know, but he should either get some coaching on how to do post-match interviews from Beckham or stop doing so many, because he comes over quite badly. But you probably can't coach charm or screen presence.

[dave]

Ballague's pointless campaign against the FA cup continues! Jealous because the Spanish cup is two bob? However meaningless Guillem considers it, it may contribute to his journalistic meal-ticket losing his job, so he should show more respect. After all, few were demanding Rafa's exit prior to Barnsley.

I heard an interesting comment from a BBC journo, who said he'd rarely been around a team with less camaraderie and spirit than Liverpool on Saturday, they seemed apathetic before and after the game. It's also noticeable the lack of players rushing to Beni's defence.

You also hear a lot about Rafa's isolation since 'power crazed' Paco's exit. What about that Scottish bloke sat next to him every week? How much is he being paid to be as much use (evidently) as a hat stand?

[Glyn Davies]

Can you please find some consistency for your MP3 Game podcast feed?

The download links change almost every week meaning that I have to manually download instead of letting my music software (MediaMonkey) do it.

The rss link doesn't refer to the audio files directly. I was able to use the xml alternative but this week you have taken away the MP3 file link from the top of the page so it won't download.

Not everyone has an iPod or wants to use iTunes!