Does anything go when it comes to football chants?

Teenage suicides at epidemic level are not traditionally a rich vein for comedy, but if you want Bridgend jokes they are out there. Likewise the Suffolk Strangler. This is England. This is what we do. Did you really think that would change for a footballer with a broken leg?

You do not need to know the precise details of the song about Eduardo da Silva, except to say that it ends with a comparison to Heather Mills, the former model and Beatle WAG who was left with one leg after an accident involving a police motorcycle. Sung by Aston Villa fans visiting the Emirates Stadium, the ode to Eduardo was considered outrageous enough to provoke crowd violence inside and outside the Emirates Stadium on Saturday.

So where do we draw the line? When Tottenham Hotspur visited Arsenal in a Carling Cup semi-final recently anti-Semitic comments could be heard, and some of those who appeared to be most upset at the insensitivity of the Villa fans seemed to have no problem with that. The same could be said of many Manchester United followers, who were apoplectic at the possibility of Manchester City fans besmirching the Munich remembrance ceremony yet were happy to hurl a vile untruth at Arsène Wenger, the Arsenal manager, six days later.

At the Emirates on Saturday, foreign visitors seemed more vexed about the Eduardo chant than regular observers of the English game. We have heard it all before, and far worse, if one recalls some of the abuse that has been directed at Gary Neville over the years.

In the end, it is down to us. If we really think that anything goes, Eduardo is as much fair game as someone’s mother or the victims of a tragic accident. Only the supporters can decide where to draw the line and in the end we get the jokes and the songs we deserve.

What do you think? Should fans be allowed to chant what they like, or is there a line that should not be crossed?

Comments

[Phil J Noonan]

Tragedy and Comedy.
The two grotesque masks used so often in the arts and theatre.
One man`s tragedy, sadly it seems, is another slew of people`s comedy.
Always has been, always will be.
Whether its the death of Diana, or the plight of hostage Ken Bigley, the difference between one guy nervously whispering a sick joke to his best buddy at the office, and a crowd of many thousands all heartily voicing a chant about an horriffic multi fractured limb is, anonymity.
Poll each of the ten thousand chanters individually and in private, show them the actual footage, and I`m pretty certain that 99% of them will reach for the puke bucket and hang their heads in shame. But surround each one of them with 9,999 others, and suddenly its a "laugh", its "just a song to get them going", its ..democratic!
The majority rule...well, on your own terrace in your own sea of scarves and banners it rules.
the only way to eliminate it is to make it illegal, police it, throw heavy fines and lifetime bans at the perpetrators.
But then where do you draw the line?
"the referee`s a .....", illegal?
Hardly, more often than not its a succinct summary of his performance.

Personally, I find a lot of the baiting chants pretty unpalatable, but short of enforcing all manner of draconian regulations and thus turning the sound of the terraces into mild murmers and the occasional burst of appreciative polite applause, I cant see it changing.
I know that I've found myself screaming the most foul abuse at some players in the heat of the moment on the Kop at Anfield, and been pulled along into the occasional chant I later felt a little guilty over, but I also recall the days when fans vented their spleen (often to the point of rupture) in a wholly different fashion. Torn seats , pitch invasions, physical abuse and violence, even death.
All I know is, if I`m going to pull wages in excess of 50 grand a week, and part of the process is being called names, having my lineage maligned, and my faux pas or shattered limb is used as a chant, I can either filter it out and ignore it, or choose a different profession.
Having said all of that... any song that has a crack at Heather Mills is ok in my books.
Just joking *wink*

[joe p. London]

We should remember that the vast majority of chants are not in bad taste. Sadly some kids listen to the bad taste chants and adopt the attitude of the crowds singing. They take this attitude as being adult.
Our society has no self control and begs legislation. There is an attitude of 'If there ain't no law against it, so what?' and 'So what are you going to do about it then, I've broken no laws?' We have done well to almost stop racial chants from the terraces. Surely we can do something here?

[LP - Brighton]

Dave - Hardly a joyous topic though is it? Show me the humour and I'll laugh along with you. Don't get me wrong, there are humourous songs and chants but that's not what this is about. As for your tsunami reference - the football chanting is done there and then, face-to-face to and from people that all live amongst each other and see each other every day and largely live by the same rules and, importantly, understand what you're chanting.....not by text message to people the other side of the world that you'll never meet. Martin - I hope you're reading this. This is a good example that you should pick up on - chant whatever you like as it can all be conveniently packaged as 'cultural humour' which means that this whole debate is irrelevant to some people here. There is no line to be drawn, it's just our culture innit.

[mariusz]

We all seem so keen to emulate sterile American sports. 'D-Fence' 'D-Fence'

yawn

[Timothy Tanner]

Mr Phil.

1) What about banning players who deliberately kick opponents - Gallas on Nani for example...

You mean like here? http://timesonline.typepad.com/thegame/2008/02/nani-showman-or.html

3) 3) Petulism and professionalism - where do they meet. Oopps back to Gallas.

Why hello article on it:http://timesonline.typepad.com/thegame/2008/02/should-william.html#comments

[Chris]

Of course anything goes & Gooners get what they deserve. Grow up.

[Rhys Jaggar]

I have to say that if we want to eliminate hatred from our society, then the hatred in football songs is something which needs to go.

'Stand up if you hate Tottenham!' is not a chant I respond to, even if 45,000 fans at the Emirates do. Spurs deserved to win the Carling Cup - they beat Arsenal and Chelsea fair and square. Until you can respect your rivals, you will not succeed yourself....

Songs about the Spurs' manager's mother hardly demonstrate adult behaviour........although it's maybe better than beating up a Villa fan and splitting their skull.......

'Build a bonfire...' sung by the MUFC fans demonstrates true hatred of Scousers and City fans, hardly presenting Manchester as a City of Enlightenment, is it?

There may well be bad songs at Anfield, but my impression is that there are not. My limited judgement of LUFC in that regard is that, whilst they regard bunking into stadia as acceptable, they don't consider really rude and insulting songs as within their culture. Perhaps they have others areas to address?

What I guess the debate needs to focus on in an imperfect world is how you discharge really violent, negative emotions in a way which doesn't injure people physically, unless of course it's two sets of hard-core fans have an agreed punch up at an agreed venue well away from view and anyone else's property.......

[steven c]

a very minor point. what level of intelligence does it take to sing these tasteless ditties at a place where you are outnumbered twenty or thirty to one? At your own fortress, surrrounded by thirty thousand of your own mates, maybe.

[Danielle Blake]

I'm seeing a lot of comments referring to "gallows humour", and that tired old excuse which is wheeled out when describing anything unsavoury about the English game: "it's all part and parcel of English football". The problem is people can't seem to tell the difference between humour and abuse. And there is a real and huge difference. It shouldn't be tolerated - first of all players/managers shouldn't have to endure that kind of abuse. I've heard people say that they should put up with it because they earn a fortune, which is utter nonsense - no human being deserves to be treated like that. These small minded people also don't realise that it's ruining the matchday experience for families and the majority of decent fans. If I went to a Premiership match for the first time today and heard some of the vile chants, it would probably put me off going to one ever again.

[PLAngel]

Indeed, anything goes. Nice or not, chants are just another effective tool in the fan arsenal to annoy, harass and irritate the opposing club. Take off yer skirts you bunch of nancies. If you don't like it, free up a seat for a true fan. For those of us across the pond who can't be there....well, just consider yourselves lucky to hear those chants in person. they don't come through clearly on the telly.

[Sibs]

I was at the game and found the songs disgusting and puerile to say the least

It was right up there with the Utd & Chelsea fans singing about Wenger or the sickening chants from Ipswich fans regarding Norwich's Bryan Gunn a few years back. There is a place for banter, but a minority of fans unfortunately will always push the boundaries too far.

[Dave]

Well LP you are a bundle of joy aren't you. As for the chants yes get on with it. Whenever there is a tragedy such as the tsunami within minutes there are text messages flying round the world with sick jokes on them. We all laugh and pass them on, it does not mean that we are heartless and don't care about the victims but it is cultural humour.
I do think the Arsenal fans have been more than a touch sanctimonious about the whole thing and if it had happened to a player from any other club they would have been singing along.

[Phil, Nottingham]

What is going on here in this column ? Is this something akin to the Arsenal agony aunt page....one week, let's debate how we should punish other teams. This week, how can we stop people chanting about Arsenal players ????
If you want material to debate how about
1) What about banning players who deliberately kick opponents - Gallas on Nani for example...
2) Thoughts on slanderous remarks made by managers on fellow professionals ?
3) Petulism and professionalism - where do they meet. Oopps back to Gallas.

Mr Samuel, please get a balanced view on this...

[Matt]

The Man Utd supporters' song about Cesc Fabregas isn't too pleasant either.

[chris barnes]

newcastle fan here remembering west ham fans giving glenn roeder abuse because he had cancer, and then booing shay given off when harewood ruined his career with a horrible injury. classless in my opinion

[jeremyinoz]

Football chants are created to rile the opposition, but they also draw on embedded traits in the English character. They exhibit gallows humour, a desire to puncture pomposity and a resistance to being told how to think. The football chant is perhaps one of our few remaining 'speakers' corners'. It is Manchester United's seeming view of the Munich disaster as an event of world significance rather than a sad plane accident that invites the ire of opposition fans rather than any wish to denigrate those lives or careers were ended. Of all the current chants, I find those directed at Arsene Wenger by certain Manchester United supports to be the most hateful and lacking in humour. I struggle to find any merit in them.

[RBA]

Being a Norwich fan I'm used to the chants about being married to my sister, and spending my week on a tractor. It's part of football, as long as the opposition fans don't mind getting the regional jokes back, where is the problem.

[Nick Cotter]

The Eduardo story has attracted the largest amount of publicity of any injury I can remember (save for the 2 yearly England related meta-tarsal debacle we all have to go through although thank God we’ll be spared that this year, every cloud etc), particularly for a player who, if reports from Arsenal are to believed, is likely to be playing at the top level again this time next year.

I think the moment that we start regulating what people may or may not say, we move closer and closer to inhibiting laws of freedom of speech and this is something that cannot happen. Virtually all comedy has a target and invariably people get offended, but the moment we resort to throwing individuals out of football grounds for indulging in a bit of a gallows humour on Saturday afternoon (can I just reiterate that Eduardo is not dead or dying, he is simply the victim of a bad injury which unfortunately is an occupational hazard) we are moving even closer to an Orwellian police state.

This is the reason Rowan Atkinson (and others) launched a campaign to protect the right of freedom of speech within comedy, because the moment you have satire without offending anyone, you don’t have satire. I personally found the Eduardo song and its topical reference point quite amusing. I’m sure that some people found it puerile and tasteless. The point is that what is funny and not funny is wholly subjective (I personally would ban the Vicar of Dibley on grounds that it has never even made me raise a smile, no matter how “kooky” her and the parishers’ antics) but it is not for me nor anyone else to say what can and cannot be banned on the terraces at football matches, unless it is slanderous, homophobic or racist, which in this case, it wasn’t.

[Luke Nestler]

This debate will always create controversy and hypocrisy, as every team has its fans that are righteously indignant enough to cry foul when opposition supporters chant, malice intended over comedy or not. The same fans all tend not to hear their own kind doing just the same.

Attitudes change over time and I wonder how many of those here claiming that anyhing goes would still condone the monkey chanting and other racist abuse witnessed in Spain. The fact is that it is not considered as offensive over there, having never had the whole political correctness movement.

The truth is that not everything is still fine, and what is acceptable in England is changing. Strange that people still think it's okay to sing about paedophilia or disaster involving huge loss of life for example, but it is now taboo to comment on ethnicity. The interesting question is will we ever end up at a stage where nothing remotely controversial is acceptable and we are reduced to merely chanting about the relative merits of players' skills?

I personally hope not, and I shouldn't think that we'll ever see the end of abusive chanting - it's part of the enjoyment of matchday.

[Jeremy]

Does anything go when it comes to football chants?

Absolutely.

[LP - Brighton]

No, anything doesn't go with football chanting. The content coming from the terraces must be regulated somehow. The laws are there already. If someone stood on a soapbox in the local High Street spewing out vicious homophobic, racist, paedophilic bile they will be arrested and rightly so. People don't do that, though. They're not stupid. They're far braver and tougher in a crowd. Specifically a football crowd. Safety in numbers. Cowards.

Football should be no different in the dealing with these people than other aspects of society. The people that are likely to sing/chant such things are likely to have no brains and unfulfilling lives centred around birds, booze and football. The content of abuse coming from the terraces, like football violence, has nothing to do with football but everything to do with society as we all know. These idiots almost certainly have issues at home. They might have issues in the bedroom perhaps, maybe they have homophobic views because they are actually gay themselves etc etc.

The complexities involved with crowd behaviour shouldn't deter us from the fact these idiots are already rounded up like sheep. They are stood still for a couple of hours all facing the same way. Easy pickings for the police. The clubs will probably already have the names of most of them. What are we waiting for ? All we need to do as fans is be braver by reporting these so-called 'supporters' to adequately trained stewards but the greater emphasis must be with the clubs and the media. They have the resources to make it as painless and swift as possible. Instead of showing interest in which WAG is at the game cameras should be turned to the idiots who might be chanting disgraceful things towards other fans/players. We don't need to see umpteen angles of a goal, foul or penalty appeal. A few TV or CCTV cameras should be able to identify the guilty without affecting the TV audiences' viewing. Report the chants & send any footage to the authorities. Clubs can report findings in their match programmes and the FA/Police and clubs can take action where appropriate. This should not be the sole preserve of the Premiership either. All league grounds have police, stewards and some sort of TV/CCTV presence don't they?

If a high profile player came out as being gay they are guaranteed hassle at every game from possibly his own fans, certainly the away ones. That will be the case until every team has a top openly gay player, in the same way racist chanting has, thankfully, largely disappeared domestically as there are far more black players than ever before. While elements of society has the views it has this will not happen. Black players cannot hide their skin colour, gay players can and do hide their sexuality. A few more role models wouldn't go amiss, but that's a separate topic in itself for another time.

[paul]

yep, very happy to say that anything goes. and how would you police any control over this anyway, as being insulted is a purely subjectional thing? If people wish to take in some enjoyment on a saturday afternoon but are put off by a little bit of name calling, there are plenty of other things they can do you amuse themselves.

[Timothy Tanner]

The line seems to be only crossed by opposition fans, at least that is what seems to be the attitude. Liverpool fans and Man U fans sing songs mocking the horrible loss of life both sides have suffered. For some reason, it is ok to sing about it yourselves but the opposition doing the same back is considered sick and how evil the others side are.

When I was on a, normally very reasonable, Liverpool site during the fears over the Munich anniversary, a lot of good fans expressed their best wishes. Some said bleep them and others went on about how they wouldn't get this coverage on the 50th anniversary of their disaster and how evil Man U fans were. One laid into Charlton for what he said about Edwards over Moore, another laid into a guy who pointed out that Liverpool fans had sung Munich songs years before Hillsborough. This was just some fans, to repeat there were many Liverpool fans who were respectful and were upset that their was even a fear that such an anniversary could be ruined. Had this been the other way round with Liverpool having a tragic anniversary, I fully expect Man U fans would have done the same, good and bad.

What happened there happens all over, had Carew/Young/Barry suffered what Dudu did then some Arsenal fans would have have sung such a song, it is an easy target. Fans need to recognise their own hypocrisy, realise where the line is, how much hurt crossing that line can do and take a stand not to cross that line. Fans of Liverpool, Arsenal and others boast about their class, why not show it by being the first ones to stand on their own feet?

[isi_777]

hi martin,

this is a bit more of a general reaction to the article but, in my opinion, football fans are represented with far too much favorability. phrases such as "the fans own the club" and "the fans have a right to express their opinion" are semi-factual statements that are banded around without context or common sense. i also do not like the way blatant thuggery is often 'excused' by (arguably populist) media disclaimers such as "i can understand the fans' passion but..."

in terms of accountability and responsibility, i believe institutions (such as clubs) are too easily/fully blamed for poor fan behaviour when, really, individuals should be a little more accountable for their actions. we are, after all, talking about grown men here... not children.

it's a complicated situation, of course, and there is no simple solution... but one thing that i believe should be prioritised is the general promotion of good values and all-round good manners in football. a better example should be set throughout all channels of football-related society (from players and managers, to advertising and media, to parents and teachers etc.) so that, rather than playing up to the stereotype of an aggressive fan and/or player that pushes and shoves and argues with referees, examples are set surrounding good sportsmanship and a general sense of 'friendly fun' (with an element of competitiveness as well, of course).

i sound like i've been possessed by a disney movie... hope you get the idea anyway.

[Paul]

Quite simply, no. Fans are in a sense representatives of their clubs. The clubs know this, or they at least accept that their behaviour is a reflection on the club, which is why they have rules. Also rules are there to protect fans who do not want to hear disgusting, vile or racist chants while trying to support their team. To suggest that it is part of the fun of supporting football is nonsense. It's a failing of English football supporters, who are in many other ways some of the best fans in the world. We need to be working towards having an atmosphere at football stadiums that we can be proud of, that other countries envy. Obviously the major responsibilty for this lies with the fans themselves, but clubs can do a lot to promote such an atmosphere.

[Steven]

Welcome to England...a country with a little bit of power decided to invade and colonise countries weaker and more peaceful countries over the centuries. And inadvertently left a mess in many of them, especially in Africa and the middle east.
The attitude of the football supporters is just a reflection of the English mentality amongst themselves. Unfortunately, I am in the generation where I am witnessing the continuous decline of my country.

[A Russell]

Disgusting chants of Rangers and Hearts fans besmirching the memory of the greatest football manager in Scotland, Jock Stein. The complicit silence from the "Media" in Scotland says a lot. One Scotland, Many Bigots.

[Ces]

Ultimately, yes, anything does go when it comes to football chants. A bit like comedy. If it's not against the law, you can chant it. If it is against the law, let the law deal with it. You might be offended by it, but is punching the guy next to you going to make it better? What's wrong with a rousing chorus of 'sticks & stones'? That'll learn 'em. Besides, the endless 1, 2 & 3 minute silences, and premeditated spontaneous rounds of applause are wearing just a little bit thin. I'm a Leeds fan. Go ahead, disrespect our Don, just don't demand I respect your Matt, or Bob, or Bill, or, you get the idea.

[tracey]

Foreign visitors - were they French nuns on tour?

They can't have been football fans, because if you imagine abroad it's all play up and play the game rah rah rah, you're very insular indeed.

Having said that, a Nicolas Anelka loyalty pledge is worth more than most stewards.