Martin Samuel replies: should the Welsh national anthem be played at Wembley?

It's been a busy few weeks for Martin Samuel. Not only has he cluttered his mantlepiece with a couple more journalism awards, but he has also set tempers flaring with his debate on whether the Welsh national anthem should be played at Wembley prior to the FA Cup final between Portsmouth and Cardiff City. You replied in your droves, and Martin has responded to the best of them.

When will the Welsh and Scottish realise that the national anthem is their anthem too? David

MS: Technically, yes, in terms of Great Britain, but in football the countries compete individually so Wales and Scotland do have unique anthems. Scotland’s, of course, is all about stuffing the English, which seems rather sad to be so defined by a relationship with another country. The counter-argument that God Save The Queen/King contains a line about crushing rebellious Scots is incorrect. There was an extra fourth verse inserted to this effect in the mid-18th century marking anti-Jacobite sentiment, but it was not included in the version published in Gentlemen’s Magazine in 1745, which is regarded as definitive. Suddenly, I feel like one of the Old Codgers who used to answer general knowledge queries and settle pub arguments in the Daily Mirror.   

I would understand it if a club such as Atletico Bilbao with strong Basque nationalistic policies were to raise a similar point, but the fact is that Cardiff City cannot claim to be a bastion of Welsh nationalism amongst the hoards of English clubs in the FA Cup. Pedro

MS: I wouldn’t even understand it with Atletico Bilbao. It all seems a bit Freedom for Tooting, if you ask me.

No, of course the Welsh anthem should not be played. Indeed, when are English teams going to get an English anthem to sing to? God Save the Queen is the British anthem, which is a different thing entirely. Glenn Beckett

MS: A decent anthem would be a start. Apart from Japan, we must be the only country that sings about an individual rather than the land and its people. I don’t really know the Queen so I cannot say for certain that I’d want her saved, but I’ve met some very nice people travelling about this island and I’d like to know they were getting looked after.

As a Portsmouth boy exiled in Swansea I am touched by all my work colleagues desperately hoping that Cardiff City will lose. Micky

MS: Exactly. The idea that Cardiff City are in some way representing all of Wales or every Welshman is a bit rich when you consider local rivalries in club football.

One anthem only please, but as a compromise maybe Tom Jones or Dame Shirley Bassey could belt out God Save The Queen? Tom

MS: Brilliant, Tom. Everyone reading this right now – and it is more of a niche audience, mate, so don’t expect fan mail – will be murmuring ‘now, why didn’t I think of that,’ because I certainly am. The singers you mentioned don’t come cheap, though. If the Football Association really wanted to sort the Welsh from the chaff they could try booking Heather Jones.

If they do end up playing it, I wouldn't knock the Portsmouth fans if they sung over it. English competition, English anthem. Elliott Clarkson

MS: Oh, I would. If the FA does cave on this, there has to be a respect, both ways, if only for nice people like the next gentleman.

Cardiff fans generally are not demanding that the Welsh anthem is played. In fact, the majority opinion on the most popular Cardiff City message board says it is an English competition, taking place in England and whatever the FA decides should be respected. Just because a politician jumps on a bandwagon, it shouldn't be seen as the view of all Cardiff fans. Incidentally, this particular politician is from west Wales with his own agenda. It would be nice if Hen Wlad Fy Nhadau was sung, but if the FA doesn't agree, fine by me. I'll just be enjoying watching Cardiff in the cup final for the first time in 81 years – a cup, incidentally, which we've entered for every one of those years, unlike some English teams I could mention. Kevin Leonard

MS: Ah, the voice of reason. It will never catch on.

Slow news day is it Martin? Of course the Welsh anthem should be played at the final. Dave

MS: Clearly not as slow as it is where you are, Dave. Your message was sent at 3.25am.

Could we not play both anthems? As I recall, the English national anthem is actually Land of Hope and Glory, not God Save the Queen, although personally, I wish it were Jerusalem, preferably Emerson, Lake and Palmer's version. Debbie

MS: And there you lost me, Debbie. Emerson, Lake and Palmer? Perfectly good version by The Fall from the I Am Kurious, Oranj album, with a very fine rant about dogs preceding it, if I remember rightly. And speaking on behalf of the Old Codgers again, there is no official English national anthem. We adopt God Save The Queen from the United Kingdom and Commonwealth. I’m all for a wider audience for William Blake, though.

Why not play the Welsh anthem? The so-called English one is dreadfully dull and it is the FA Cup not the English Cup. Rakesh Sondhi

MS: Agreed about the dullness of God Save The Queen, but it is an English cup if not The English Cup. The Football Association represents England and the only reason they are not known as the English Football Association is because they were the first and also, that when referred to in the English media, the Englishness is implied. Abroad, I am sure they are known as the English Football Association just as we refer to the French Federation or the Scottish Football Association.

I don’t see why any national anthem is played as it is not an international. Could God Save the Queen not just be an act of deference to the royal guest, prior to them yawning their way through the game, wishing they were at a rugby match? Abide With Me gives all the tradition the competition needs. Johnboyblue

MS: I suppose the national anthem is part of the tradition of the event, but I do agree it is hardly a highlight. In fairness, before this debate, had somebody asked me if it was played at the FA Cup Final I would have said yes, but I wouldn’t have put the house on it.

I am a Cardiff City season ticket holder. This is Portsmouth versus Cardiff City, not Wales versus England. The Welsh national anthem should not be played and the Welsh sports minister should be sacked. He is a rugby fan anyway. Chris

MS: Certainly, he seems to have little understanding of club and international differences.

All this whining about it being an English competition. Well, the English were happy to borrow the best stadium in Britain after they infamously went over budget building their stadium which, incidentally, falls far short of the Millennium. Mike

MS: And very grateful we were, too, Mike. Indeed, I could better understand the argument for playing Land Of My Fathers as a mark of respect to the hosts during the Millennium Stadium years.

It is funny seeing UEFA explore ways of entering Cardiff City in Europe if they win the FA Cup, as I recall their insistence that all club teams should play in the league of the country in which they reside, or else forfeit any place gained in European competition. Why the sudden 180 degree turn? Rehan Ashraf

MS: It is called a populist bandwagon. UEFA have never let one leave empty yet.

The Welsh national anthem should not be played at the final, and nor should the English anthem. If Arsenal had got to the final they most likely would not have had any English players on show anyway, so just how relevant are the national anthems for club competitions? They should be reserved for international fixtures. James

MS: Inclined to agree here, James, which makes me think the national anthem is not for the clubs these days, but for the host association and, as one contributor stated earlier, the royal guest. If the two cup finalists kept the same starting line-ups that played in the semi-finals there would be one Welshman on the pitch come May 17, plus six and a half Englishmen (Stephen McPhail was born English but plays for the Republic of Ireland, so is divided), two from Scotland, Holland and France, one from Senegal, Ghana, Croatia, Nigeria, Czech Republic and Finland, plus half from Norway, Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland. Maybe we could play a third of God Save The Queen and then all do the hokey-cokey.

Yes they should play it. As an Englishman in Wales you have to see, hear and feel the passion when the Welsh sing their anthem at a sporting event. It is awesome. Let Cardiff have their day, and don’t forget they were the ultimate hosts for the last few years. At least the Welsh will sing along. Mike McLovin

MS: Yes, but even better than that why not play Y Brawd Houdini by Meic Stevens, which has quite probably the catchiest chorus every written, and we can all join in? Better still, go out and buy a copy which is available on a Sain records compilation called Welsh Rare Beat, available in very few good record shops and absolutely no rubbish ones. Or download it. Go on, you won’t regret it. Good version by the Super Furry Animals on Youtube, too.

It shouldn't be played. All it will do is stir up a volume of anti-Welsh bile and reopen the ‘why are they playing in the English system?’ debate. We are hoping to represent England and the English FA in Europe – with none of this wildcard malarkey – and playing the Welsh anthem (in addition to the moronic element of our support who will boo God Save The Queen) will not endear Cardiff or their supporters to anyone. We have a bad enough reputation as it is. The sooner we leave the Football Association of Wales and become full time members of the FA the better. This Welsh minister is just trying to score points prior to the upcoming local elections. Richard Griffiths

MS: I can see where you are going with this Richard. Turning the FA Cup final into Wales versus England is not going to do anybody any favours. Sam Hammam tried that with the FA Cup tie against Leeds United a few years back and near enough caused a riot.

Not like a politician to pipe up and throw accusations of xenophobia around is it? Why don't they just wait for their free royal box ticket to arrive and shut up? Ban all anthems and ban all politicians from the game as well. Dave Tole

MS: Again, I can’t fault the logic.

I just cannot believe Cardiff City are in the final. They can play the Sid Vicious version of God Save The Queen for all I care – it is a day I never thought would happen. Luke

MS: I’m right behind this one too, Luke. And now, a historical interlude.

Of course the Welsh national anthem should be played. If the FA did not plan for it, they should not have entered Welsh teams in the draw. The last time Cardiff were in the final, Land Of My Fathers was played. Kieran Robins

MS: Sometimes precedent is not all that matters. If we made a mistake 20 years ago, we do not have to keep repeating it just to satisfy the wish for consistency. However, the fact that Land Of My Fathers was sung in 1927 is by far the most compelling argument for singing it again, because that would make it part of FA Cup tradition to be wheeled out when a Welsh team gets to the final, and there is something quite thoughtful about that. 

When English teams played in the Welsh Cup final was God Save the Queen played? If the answer is no, then they need not play Land of My Fathers at Wembley for what is an English Cup final. Richard Jones

MS: I would find it strange if the English national anthem had been played for Hereford United, Shrewsbury Town and Kidderminster Harriers when competing in Wales. I would regard it as an imposition, in fact, because nobody thought of them as representing England in the tournament. Unless it is a European competition, perhaps, a club represents itself. Even now, I don’t see Cardiff as representing Wales against Portsmouth of England.

What sourness you display, Mr. Samuels. In 1927, both anthems were played at the FA Cup Final. Indeed, the King so enjoyed the Welsh anthem that he asked for it to be played a second time. So, why do you adopt such a miserable attitude, is it so offensive to you that a simple courtesy cannot be tolerated? All that has been requested, not demanded as you so transparently framed it, is the inclusion of a beautiful hymn. Is that so unreasonable? Finally, since I'm sure you don't know this either, Abide With Me was first sung at that same 1927 Cup Final, initially by a Welsh choir. Where did your xenophobia spring from? It doesn't flatter you. Alan Evans

MS: Neither does your ignorance, Mr. Evans. Go to nationaltrustnames.org.uk and have a look for the greatest proliferation of the surname Samuel, first in 1881 and then in 1998. I did not realise that the people that may have been my ancestors were foreigners and could therefore be victims of my xenophobia, but thank you for enlightening me. As for the other perceived gaps in my education, if you follow this link to my match report of the Cardiff City semi-final win published on April 7 and skip to the final paragraph you will discover I was very much aware of when Abide With Me was first sung at Wembley. Welsh music, Welsh poetry, Welsh people, I’ve made friends with them all. Not so big on nationalism, though, Welsh or English, as you may have noticed. Finally, as you seem so keen on courtesy, it does not take much to spell a man’s name right. It is Samuel, Mr. Evans. Samuel.

Comments

[Josh Dickson]

Martin Samuel - Legend.

[andy, hong kong]

im amazed that people are missing the single most important revelation in this debate! That MS is a Fall fan! respect is thus enhanced ten fold-ah.

[diago]

Is Wales's not part of the UK and therefore not a independent country, so it is only right their masters anthem be played.

[Daniel Sydney]

Could we just redo the whole comp, hope that normal service is restored and have a Man U v Chelsea final.
Cardiff v Portsmouth it sounds like a FA cup final from the 1920's. Perhaps a policeman on a white horse will make an appearance? As for the Welsh National Anthem, if they must! No one can understand it but its a nice tune!

[Jason Babbage]

Martin,
you seem quite a logical bloke, and thank God you realise that this is a football match and not what some believe to be a nationalistic event. I myself am only part welsh,as it was my misfortune to be born in Malta instead of God's country. I have no hatred of everything English, and just want to enjoy an occasion that I never thought I would see in my lifetime, especially seeing that my first few years of following Cardiff were in the dungeon during the late 1980's and early 90's. Abide with me has always brought a lump to my throat, especially when sung well, but sadly I only get to hear it at funerals!
I plead with all City fans to do the decent thing, and stand silently in respect of GSTQ, and show that we have some decorum.
Good luck to both teams, and here's hoping for an entertaining final with City pinching it with Ledley or Ramsay getting the winner.
I know that the vast majority of English fans believe that this will be as interesting as watching paint dry and will be doing something less boring instead!
Regards,
Jason Babbage

[richard edwards]

Clearly, come precedent was set in 1927 when Cardiff last appeared in a
Cup Final. David Lloyd George was PM.
I would be surprised if 'Abide with me' was not accompanied by the Welsh Anthem.

[Andy Davies]

"When will the Welsh and Scottish realise that the national anthem is their anthem too? David"

When the English get their own national anthem!

[Graeme]

Maybe the Celts in general wouldn't be so keen to biff the English if the English showed the slightest scintilla of sensitivity towards their neighbours! There's an organisation called the England and Wales Cricket Board, which, when it shortens its name chooses to keep the 'E', 'C' and 'B'... yet mysteriously drops the 'W'. It runs a Test team which it chooses to call 'England', despite the fact it represents England AND WALES... and Scots are also eligible to participate! (a number have done so with distinction).

Then there are the England football fans who sing 'Rule Britannia' (anyone spot the irrelevance??). To add an extra level of inapproriateness, this song was written by a Scot to celebrate the Union - i.e. one of things it celebrated was that England was no longer an independent nation. Talk about supporters being historically illiterate! And what's 'Dambusters' all about? It wasn't England fighting Germany, it was the UK wot won it!

As long as the English can't be bothered to find their own anthem, nicking the UK's instead, they can't exactly complain if the Scots choose one which celebrates a historically correct victory!

[Glen cheney]

If the Queen is not present at the FA Cup final, why is the God save the Queen played before the game anyway? If she is to be there, then playing Land of my fathers would be an insult to her. Here in the USA the Star spangled banner is played before almost every sporting event, from high school football and wrestling, little league baseball onto professional sports. I don't know why the Americans have to do it. I wrote "almost" earlier, because in an exhibition game between two major European teams at Giants stadium in New Jersey, the New Jersey Governor was angry and insulted that the US national anthem was not played but those of the participants was. ( Man U. and Real Madrid I think ) Even though it was explained to him that it was not customary for the hosts anthem to be played if the game was in a neutral country.

[Simon Evans]

I'll just be happy to boo God Save the Queen!!