The Premier League v Serie A: the (objective) Italian view

Watch the video clip of how Sky Italia reported on Oliver Kay's piece

When I read Oli Kay's blog last week I didn't think it was a big deal. I disagreed with some of his points but, heck, I'm a natural contrarian, so I'm bound to find fault. And, yes, I'm Italian so maybe I thought I was being a bit oversensitive. But then, watching Sky Italia's sports news last night, I saw his piece being given massive prominence (smile Oli, you're famous in Italy!). And I soon realized I'd be asked to chip in my two (euro) cents.

I'll try to be as balanced and unbiased as possible, bearing in my mind that all of us are born with some kind of inherent bias: how we control and manage it is the key.

1. Oli writes that "it's strange how the balance of power (and money) can change so quickly", referring to the shift in prominence from Serie A to the Premier League. Actually, it's not so strange. A decade has passed since the time when England was a dumping ground for has-beens and never-weres. In that time, a lot has changed.

The Premier League - and here, regardless of how you feel about "modern football", you have to give credit to certain people - has turned itself into a commercial juggernaut. Credit to the marketing people doing the selling, who have put together a successful product. Credit to the people running the English game. But the success was also built on other factors, which Italy did not benefit from (thankfully).

For a start, England began from a much lower position. It's easier to move up when you're lower down than it is to stay at the top when you've been there for ten years (as was the case with Serie A from the mid-1980s to the mid-1990s). The other huge boost to England was born out of tragedy. Without the state-of-the-art stadia in England it's unlikely that the country could have rid itself so effectively of its hooligan problem within the grounds itself (outside, it's a different issue: remember the dozen Spurs supporters knifed a quarter mile from Stamford Bridge two years ago? Probably not, it was under-reported and not considered "football-related violence"). And would the grounds ever have been refurbished had it not been for the Taylor Report (a direct consequence of Hillsborough and Bradford)and some of the public money it brought with it? Probably not, or, at least, certainly not to the same degree.

At the same time, Italian football has gone out of its way to be self-destructive. Whether it was Calciopoli, the sale of individual TV rights, fan violence, general mismanagement at the top by people who should have known better, terrible policing in some cities (as most Englsh fans who have been to Rome can tell you) and accounting practices which sometimes range from the "creative" to the downright "fraudulent", monkeys could probably have done a better job. And, in this, you have to spread the blame around: from the administrators to the clubs to law enforcement to politicians to the media (who were clearly not vigilant enough) to some supporters themselves (who accepted absurd and extreme situations).

So there you have it. Oli is right on that point, the balance of power has shifted. But it's certainly not "strange" that it has. Oh, and this "Serie A-beset-by-fan-violence" litany has to end at some point. The fact of the matter is that incidents of violence at Italian grounds have declined in each of the last five years. But, of course, that's not a story. Perception is another matter of course. And it's certainly true that the Italian media devotes acres of press to any incident, whereas, in this country, witness the knifings after the Chelsea v Tottenham FA Cup game, violence tends to get buried.

2. But back to football. Oli's appetite isn't whet by the new imports. Fair enough. If you want to compare imports at the top four clubs in Italy and England, let's go ahead and do that. Ronaldinho was surplus to requirements at Barcelona? Great. So was Deco, who joined Chelsea and, incidentally, is three years older (retirement home indeed). Oh, and Oli speaks of Ronaldinho's "two years of unmitigated decline": I'll give you last season, Oli, but the year before that Ronaldinho scored twenty-one league goals in thirty-two Liga matches. If that's decline, I wonder what your definition of success is.

Looking at the newcomers in the two countries, I wonder what it takes to whet Oli's appetite. Gianluca Zambrotta, a World Cup winner from Barcelona, may not excite him, but maybe Jose Bosingwa does. Maybe David N'Gog does as well. You can laugh at Philippe Senderos. Go ahead. Ha! Ha! But he will not start at Milan and Arsene Wenger, a guy who knows his football, believed in him enough to keep him around for five years. Let's see who has the last laugh there.

In fact, it's difficult to compare the two countries' newcomers, at least at the top, because England's big four didn't sign too many players from abroad. But maybe they've been whetting Oli's appetite. Samir Nasri? Great young player - I was very impressed with the twenty-nine minutes he played at the Euros. Amaury Bischoff? Well, he started as many top-flight games as I have (zero). Guess I'll wait to see how that pans out. Daniele Dossena? Maybe I should make a joke about how a 26-year-old guy with two Serie A seasons under his belt can move from a mid-table side like Udinese into a starting job at Liverpool. But maybe I shouldn't. Philipp Degen? Yes, Swiss right-backs are terribly exciting aren't they? David N'Gog? Yes I know I'm scraping the bottom of the barrel here by citing a center-forward who scored one more top-flight goal than Julian Clary in his career, but, fact is, there really are no major signings from the Premier League top four to talk about. So I'll leave it there.

Oli evidently isn't excited by Julio Baptista, because he "flopped" at Arsenal and didn't do much at Real Madrid. Fine. The fact is that he's twenty-six, has thirty-six international caps for Brazil (which, I think he'll agree, are rather difficult to assemble if you're a complete donkey) and played ninety minutes in their last outing: a World Cup qualfiier against Argentina. If he's good enough to start for Brazil in an official game against their biggest rival, heck, I think I'll give him a shot.

Christian Poulsen? Well, if you talk to Guillem Balague (or Juande Ramos) he was crucial to Seville the last two seasons. But, it's true, he's no David N'Gog. Sulley Muntari? Methinks that if he'd signed for Arsenal or Manchester United you'd all be praising him to high heaven. Clearly it's just a coincidence that in his only season at Portsmouth they won the FA Cup.

3. Oh, and I've left the best for last. Where did the Special One choose to go and manage? Serie A. If watching Jose Mourinho manage a side doesn't entertain you (often more than his teams themselves), then you're a tough customer indeed.

4. I'll give Oli a pass on Shevchenko. I agree with him. He was a flop for two years. But it's not as if Milan signed him to build their side around him. If he wants to get a start at the San Siro, he has to beat out the competition of Kaka (who, as I recall, is pretty useful), Pato (another aging unexciting player), Ronaldinho, Pippo Inzaghi (giggle all you like - who scored the winner in Athens two years ago?) and Marco Borriello (19 Serie A goals last season, not a bad total). Bringing back Sheva was a calculated risk and an emotional choice. If it doesn't work out, who cares?

5. I should spend a word on Rolando Bianchi. I agree, he didn't live up to expectations at City. But those expectations should have never been there. This is a guy who had one great season in Serie A in which he scored eighteen goals. Which is more than three times the total he had scored in his entire career to that point (five in six years). I might add that he started seven games for City and scored four goals. A flop? Yes. But, believe me, I've seen worse. In fact, in his half-season at City he scored as many league goals (four) as the guy who started at center-forward for England in their last match (Jermain Defoe) scored in the same time period. It's also the same number of goals that the guy who came on for Defoe at center-forward for England in their last match (Emile Heskey) scored all season last year. So, yeah, if you judge Bianchi on half a season maybe it's true that he's rubbish, but if you apply that standard, maybe Heskey and Defoe are too. And they're good enough to play for England, aren't they?

One more thing and, in this, Italians are as guilty as the English. Judging a foreign player on a single season in your league is simply impossible. Ian Rush is remembered as a dud in Italy because he didn't have a good season in his one year at Juventus. In fact, he was one of the greatest strikers of the last thirty years. Bianchi is no Rush (obviously), but don't be too quick to judge based on limited evidence.

6. It may be churlish to point this out, but here's a quick recap. The top four in the Premier League added Deco, Bosingwa, Dossena, Nasri, Bischoff, Degen and a few lesser lights. They lost Flamini, Aleksander Hleb, John Arne Riise and Gilberto Silva. They came close to losing Frank Lampard, Didier Drogba, Emanuel Adebayor and, of course, Cristiano Ronaldo. I don't think, as Oli points out, that this is a time to be too smug.

7. Oli writes that individual clubs will remain a force at European level but the league is no longer as exotic or appealing as the Premier League or La Liga. He may be right, though I don't see what exoticism has to do with football. At a time when most top-flight clubs are dominated by foreigners nothing is really exotic, is it? And in this age of low cost travel and European integration, do we really expect something which is a two-hour flight away to be exotic?

As for what's appealing it's a matter of personal taste and you can't legislate for that. Personally, I love the Premier League and I love La Liga and I love Serie A. I don't think in terms of leagues, I think in terms of players and teams. For pure entertainment, watching Roma beats the stuffing out of watching Chelsea (at least last season's version), just as watching Manchester United is better than watching Juventus. For individual skill, I'd rather watch Barcelona than Inter or Liverpool.

8. To the people who attacked Oli in the comments below and to my compatriots who make such a big deal out of a single man's opinion: grow up. What's the point in engaging in a pissing contest? It's an indisputable fact that the Premier League has more money than Serie A. It's an indisputable fact that the Premier League performed better than Serie A last season in the Champions' League. It's equally indisputable that Italy are the world champions, that England did not qualify for the Euros and that Italy, over the last decade, has performed better at youth level than England. Oh, and it's equally indisputable that the Premier League is better run than Serie A.

Beyond that, the rest is opinion: who's better than who, who's on the decline, who's on the rise. Let's not get worked up over this. Let's enjoy football for what it is, let's leave the flag-waving and jingoism to our politicians. Let's appreciate great players and not be blinded by stupid stereotypes. Let's approach games with an open mind and try to judge without prejudice. To paraphrase Rodney King: "Can we all just get along?"

Gabriele Marcotti

Comments

[Angelo, NY]

Hey Gabriele, I've spoken to you a few times on Giorgio and Charlie's show on sirrius sat radio, and i couldn't agree more with your column. I myself enjoy the epl, serie a, la liga and football in general. In my opinion Oli Kay's blog is holds no weight. Is this what you get when epl teams have one good champions league campaign against serie a teams? Italian teams have laughed at english teams for 2 decades now and now that they have finally beaten us using our own tactics by the way is rather hillarious. Even a broken clock is right twice a day Oli. Add to that, we've had a calciopoli scandal to deal with, juve went to serie b, our stadiums are third world, if that, and violence has ruined our calcio. So the epl teams had one good year, big deal! The fact of the matter is, that Oli writes his blog out of fear. Fear that stems from the fact that the epl should enjoy a few years on top at least, but being that the serie a has closed the gap immensley in such a short period of time troubles Oli. The fact is that teams like napoli, fiorentina, sampdoria, udinese,genoa, palermo are all on the rise. And with any good tv deal, and new stadiums the serie a would be a much more attractive product than the epl. the serie a has risen from the ashes this season, without selling its soul to foriegn owners and that should be commended although there's still alot to be done. as an italian american living in the states i've had enough of italian bashing(everything here is pro epl). So Gabriele, your next column shoul be about educating the brits about the 7 Sisters of italian football, because they'll be arriving for dinner soon.

[Gabriele Marcotti]

1. David - "The Premier League have dominated Europe this decade"? Really? Three Champions' League titles are "domination"? Spain have won just as many, haven't they?
2. J - I think you'll find that Mourinho was also in talks with the Football Association for the England job. And, regardless of what his options were, my only point is that Mourinho is worth watching. And Mourinho is in Serie A.
3. Moonarmy - I wouldn't describe Elano as a future star. He's a star right now. My point isn't whether Serie A has more stars than the Premier League. It's that it has enough stars to be worth watching, which is a wholly different point.
4. Martin - I agree. The performance of the national team has NOTHING to do with whether a league is worth watching. And I agree (as I've written) that the Italian reaction has been way over the top.
5. Jonny - I don't know how you - or anyone else for that matter - can judge how mid-table sides from England, Spain or Italy would do against each other since they never actually play each other. I suppose you could use the UEFA Cup as a barometer... as I recall, an Italian side reached the semifinal last year and knocked out Everton along the way... does that prove anything? (I'll answer: no, it doesn't)

[Mike]

Gabriele, the second placed team in Italy last season were Roma. In England it was Chelsea. If Roma somehow played in the Premier League they would struggle to break into the top 5 let alone finish second. Reverse that situation and Chelsea would likely top Serie A. Ok there is absolutely no way this can be proved, but it sounds about right. What does that show? The top clubs in England are better than those in Italy.

This is a great myth that irks me : The teams outside the top 4 in the Premier League are not as strong as their equivalents in Italy. Rubbish. This may have been true as little as 2 years ago, but there is no denying that Everton, Spurs, Villa and Manchester City have strengthened significantly into top sides. I believe they are stronger sides on the whole than the 5th/6th/7th placed teams in Italy (ok Milan finished 5th but La Viola are considered 5th/6th placed material in Italy these past two seasons).

We will see in this seasons Uefa Cup just how good the English teams outside the top 4 are. I hold it to you that an English team will be in the final of the Uefa Cup (take your pick : Spurs, Everton, Man City, Aston Villa) and an Italian team won't.

Why do Italian people have to be so defensive and nationalist when it comes to football. You had your time, now let us have ours.

[Jonny]

I'm a premier league fan okay, i think although our top 4 are undisputedly the best performing in Europe for the last decade or so. But I believe this debate can be settled on the teams outside the top four of each league. Teams that come to mind are Tottenham, Portsmouth, Everton, Man City for the EPL. Lazio, Fiorentina, Udinese, Sampdoria for Serie A. Athletico, Villarreal, Racing Santander and Almeria for La Liga. Now imagine these in a mini 12 team league, i know who'd I'd go for! Yes Italians and Spanish players maybe better on the ball but physically they can't compete, when a team sits and defends, they can't break down opposition, if the opposition stops them playing football they have no plan B. That is where the premier league comes into its own. Yes the top four dominate but thats because if you play an open formation they outplay you, if you defend, they find another way of breaking you down. This is why we are dominating Europe at the moment! Italians sides try to hold on for draws but can't do it against English sides, Spanish sides often go too attacking and we beat them on the break. We have the complete package. Yes for individual skill we lack somewhat, but you cannot tell me English football is boring! I'd much rather watch Middlesbrough v Bolton than Juventus v Roma!
To the comment of Muntari being the reason Portsmouth won the F.A. Cup. He scored one penalty, yes he was good, but no matter our other midfielders and to get £12.75million for him was brilliant business for us. He will be class in Serie A because any defensive midfielder looks class in that league, he'll have four ultra defensive defenders behind him and vieira or cambiasso alongside him. Let him play with an attacking midfielder and two attacking wingers alongside him and see how he does!

[martin]

why do people talk about international teams when talking about quality of the leagues? where did the italian national team finish in seire a last season? if the premiership had the 20 best players from brazil, spain etc and england failed to qualify for the world cup, would that mean the premiership's crap? does it diminish the overall quality of players? and gab, you cant say ronaldinho wasnt in decline, stats can prove anything, the magic of football is its all perception, your goal stats just prove how a player in poor form can still do a job when in such a wonderful team as barca. your points about the epl almost losing its big stars.......how many of the players you mentioned have signed / forced rich english clubs to negotiate new contracts? how serious were they in leaving england? and your dismissive attitude to new signings is flawed, while italy squandered their millions on going from season to season, signing 30yos for ridiculous fees, the english buy young players with resale value with a vision of what their team will look like in the future, thats why theres such a low quality influx, they dont need them. they dont sign players for the sake of it, nor to appease fans during election time. thats another reason why the epl not only dominates seire a [ 9 champs lg semi finalists out of the last 16] but will do so in the future [ think about it, robinho to chelsea, when messi / aguerro decides to leave their clubs....where are they most likley to go? ] the scary thing is that england is only beginning to dominate, THATS WHY ITALY IS MAKING SUCH A BIG DEAL ABOUT THIS KAY ARTICLE, ARGUING COVERS UP THEIR FEARS, I DO THINK THEY PROTEST TOO MUCH.

[Nicholas Mutatira]

wow, it is quite rare to write and deliver a balanced and objective article on the sport of football especially where the english premier legue is concerned.! However, you Gabriele have pulled it off!! For once nothing has been forced down our (sports fans) throats -the marketing and 'hype' about the EPL- but simple facts well spelt out.

Most notably for me wasn't the defence of the serie A, and I'm almost sure it wasn't the writers objective, but his urging all of us to appreciate and enjoy the beautiful game for what it is!

Thanks, and keep them coming

[Lee]

For a clear indication of what League is 'better'... compare how many players have won a European Championship or World Cup whilst playing for an English club. The number is shockingly small. Compare it with Italy, Spain and Germany and it's frightening. (I should note that Spains recent triumph close to doubled the number for England)

The English league serves it's own ends, playing entertaining football at the expense of being tactically astute. A marketing mans dream, a patriots nightmare.

The people in this country need to understand that we get the league that we do at the expense of our national game. 7-4 / 5-4 / 4-4 results don't happen at national level. Point towards the Champions League all you like but last year we may have had 3 sides in the final, the best players of those sides in the competition last year? Cech, Essien, Ballack, Vidic, Ronaldo, Tevez, Reina, Masherano, Torres, Clichy, Fabregas, Adebayor...

[Pete]

Ha Gabriele, you never can resist a dig at my bianconeri can you?
Aside from that, thanks for setting Mr Kay straight.

[Alan]

Superb article, pragmatically written. Serie A is still quality but the premiership has caught up, thats all!!

[Charles]

"By their fruit shall ye know them". The Italians can still field 11 Italians to play internationally indicative of the far healthier state of the Serie A which is not increasingly dominated by players whose names are mostly unpronouncable and whose interests largely mercenary. Where was England in Euro 2008? Nowhere. Market that, fat cats.

[Moonarmy]

Pablo Zabaleta snubs Juventus for Exciting Manchester City & the Premier League.?

What about Cities future stars, you talk about Pato etc, what about Kompany, Elano, Jo Alves.?

[me]

Zenit St Pete 2 Man U 1

need I say more?

[J]

"Where did the Special One choose to go and manage?" Er, wasn't there only one team that wanted him? Some choice!

For all those Italians attacking England's reliance on foreigners and money, when Italy was the best league your best players were foreign. The current champions, how many Italians in the team, 1? The most successful, charismatic manager in your league, foreign.

[valerio]

This article is very well written. Well done to Marcotti.

[Dan The Man]

I don't want to get drawn into this too much as it's pretty objective and it's down to personal preference. But I always say the top 4 in England are better (in terms of getting results in Europe) than their continental counterparts at the moment but outside the top 4 there isn't too much quality in the EPL. When you watch foreign leagues the skill and tactical approach further down the league is much better than it is in England. In my opinion.

[tom]

Money is taking professional football to its logical conclusion: only the big money clubs can compete and all the other clubs will become feeders. Those that don't go out of business, of course. Yes, the occasional middle sized club will be able to hold together some good players for a while but it will only be a short interval between big club total domination.
So. In the Premiership you have the top 4. Italy, ditto. Spain, ditto. In other countries it will be the top two or one.
How long will the majority of fans who support the not so big clubs go on paying top whack prices knowing that their clubs will never, NEVER, win anything of worth?

European League? Not really, as football is a tribal sport, fans will still want to beat the rival city or club.

The future's not so clear. Maybe rules need to be introduced to limit wages/payrolls, transfer fees and imported players.

It's not the fight between the Premiership, the Serie A, or La Primera División, it's between the giants and the mortals.

[csb]

epl IS overestimated. has great(est) pace is of no doubt, but football is more than that.
what i like in serie a is that local players are widely used (best 11 of africa is not welcome, probably due to non-existing former colonies) , and is impossible to send a starting 11 on the pitch w/out a local one (see arsenal)
that's why italy's national team wins some trophies on its own, while england does not.

[Giovanni, nottingham]

Great article Gabriele, some excellent points which really balances out the argument. Serie A will improve in the next few years, and there's some really big clubs back in there now to make it the even more competitive. In terms of the pure football skills you see, it's a level above the Premiership.

[James]

Hilarious!

When did England win the World Cup? When did Italy? Oh! they ARE the World Champions!

Serie A is way better than the Premiership at producing home-grown talent.

The Premiership is rotten - rotten to the core.

[david]

banter re certain players can be thrown forever, but the money shot is the Champions League, and in that the Premier League's 'big 4' have dominated this dedade; and, of course, the spanish league trumps the italian one too, with stronger top sides playing better football. Remind us, Gabriele, what happened with that Liverpool vs Inter Milan match up last season ...

[CheshireRed]

Oh Matt Smith...Yaaaaawn.

Arsenal pretty football this, that and the other.

It's like having a lovely looking horse that doesn' t win any races. Again.

[Gabriele Marcotti]

Back again...

1. Hassan - Yes, funny how La Liga has stayed out of this... for top to bottom skill levels, it's arguably number one. Though, of course, football is not just about individual technique.
2. Kevin - If you think Serie A still has an "avoid defeat at all costs" mentality and the Premier League doesn't, you're a bit of touch. Leagues don't have mentalities. Managers do. And I think you'll find a mixture of ultra-defensive football and open, attacking styles in the Premiership, just as much as Serie A.
Also, just because something is popular, doesn't make it good. The Spice Girls probably outsold Radiohead, who's the better act? Dan Brown outsells Philip Roth. More people watch Coronation Street than watch The Wire. So what?
3. Matt Smith - Yes, Arsenal are good too.

[fraser]

what does james richardson think? thats what i'd like to know. get that man a coffee, a pink newspaper, sit him on a veranda and lets hear his views.

also i'm trying to think of italians who have been successful in the prem... zola, vialli, di matteo (notice the pattern), cant think of too many from up north. if i was a foreigner, and i wasnt going to play for man utd, i would probably only join a london club to be honest. whereas if i was to play in italy (or spain), i would probably join any club i could get. just because of the quality of life.

lets be honest, the uk is cold, grey and depressing.

not much the epl can do about that.

[Ji]

Of course it's difficult to compare the overall quality of two leagues with two totally contrasting styles of football - but I think one quite clear fact which has not been stressed enough is that it is now uncontrovertibly clear that the top four teams in England are not just superior but substantially superior to any club in Serie A. This is an overwhelming turnaround from even a few years ago, when one thinks back to when teams like AC Milan - not even the best team in Serie A at the time - would come to places like Old Trafford and win. Contrast that with last season, when Inter were comprehensivley dismanteld by the fourth-placed Premiership team and the season before, when Roma were handed a 7-1 battering by Manchester United. In fact, the top four teams in England have continuously shown their superiority over the top teams from every other European country in recent years, which is testament to how ruthlessly and successfuly these 4 teams have improved in that time. Those who, for instance, criticise Rafa Benitez for not improving Liverpool enough should put his accomplishemnts alongside those of the other top teams in Europe as well his Premiership rivals.

[Matt Smith]

Just to correct you on one thing. When you wrote:

"For pure entertainment, watching Roma beats the stuffing out of watching Chelsea (at least last season's version), just as watching Manchester United is better than watching Juventus. For individual skill, I'd rather watch Barcelona than Inter or Liverpool."

You forgot to add "and I'd rather watch Arsenal than any one of them."

Otherwise, a very well written article. Most of the talk about which is the supposed 'best league in world' is light hearted banter between fans, nothing more.