Merseyside vitriol: Oliver Kay responds

It seems like I opened a can of words with a piece yesterday about certain things that were chanted at the Merseyside derby at Goodison Park. Some have accused me of failing to understand the context in which “2-0 to the Murderers” was sung by a number of Liverpool supporters, so here goes...

Sorry to disappoint you, but I do fully understand the context. I’m not exactly a novice when it comes to Merseyside football. But, from where I’m sitting, that context – Everton and Manchester United supporters gleefully chanting “murderers” for years without, it seems, the slightest clue about what happened at Heysel in 1985 – does not excuse what was sung. It doesn’t make the chant funny, clever or brilliant, as some seem to think. The chant sucks, as do the ones that provoked it in the first place.

Some considered it genius because it silenced the Everton taunts (“You should have seen their faces …”) and because it meant that Liverpool fans have “reclaimed” – or at least taken ownership of – the “murderers” tag, much like the gay community has with the word “queer” or the black community has with the word “nigger”. Some have likened it to Tottenham's "yid" chants or Robbie Fowler’s “reclaiming” of the drug-abuse rumours back in 1999 with his infamous cocaine-snorting celebration. I take the point. I just don’t agree with it.

The difference here is that we are talking about a disaster in which 39 people died. And yes I know it was a disaster that could have unfolded at just about any European match involving just about any English club over a period from the mid-1970s to the mid-1980s and that it took a particular set of circumstances – not least inadequate security arrangements and a crumbling abomination of a stadium, which Uefa should never forgive themselves for selecting – for it to happen when it did. Believe me, I know all that and I have frequently found myself trying to explain these things to people who think they know better.

I also know that a disturbing large proportion of Everton and United supporters take undue pleasure in singing about Heysel in order to score points. I just did not really think that Liverpool fans, of all fans, would try to score points by turning the tables and singing it back in a way that made a joke (whether you like it or not) of a disaster that claimed the lives of 39 innocent football supporters.

Someone called my reaction “fake moral outrage”. There’s nothing fake about it and I wasn’t outraged, just surprised and, yes, disappointed. I could have chosen to ignore the atmosphere on Saturday and particularly the "2-0 to the Murderers" chant, but I felt and still feel very strongly about it - just as I do the United fans whom I have condemned in the past for chanting despicable things about Hillsborough and for making light of their own disaster in the interests of point-scoring. I have often wondered what Sir Bobby Charlton thinks when he hears United fans at Anfield asking “Where’s your famous Munich song?”

It just comes down to what you find acceptable. I don’t find the "murderers” chant acceptable. I don’t find “Where’s your famous Munich song?” acceptable. I don’t find “2-0 to the Murderers” acceptable. I don’t find chants about Michael Shields or Harold Shipman acceptable. I find the chants about Steven Gerrard’s family utterly despicable, as I do the Evertonian “joke” of covering your face with your hand as if to signify someone being crushed at Hillsborough. I actually feel sickened as I write this.

Maybe all of this makes me someone who has spent so long in the press box that he has lost touch with the tribal nature of football’s rivalries. Maybe, but I don’t think so. Maybe it is also possible to get so wound up in that tribal warfare that you lose sight of where the boundaries of taste lie. Some will not care, but, for me, the “2-0 to the Murderers chant” was a long way over that boundary. I know full well what the explanation is. I just don’t think that it constitutes any kind of excuse.

Comments

[john o brien]

Liverpool fans just keep letting themselfs down,
it wont be long before were back to the 80s when we cant bring our kids to matches to protect them from hearing that type of nonsense,
they (Liverpool fans) just dont have any respect for anyone.

shame on them

[peter peters]

liverpool fans done it again,
its boggles me how fifa didnt kick that club out of football years ago for all the pain and distress their fans have caused to others,

hillsboro was caused by liverpool fans and hysel was just a total disgrace.

the sun newspaper was spot on.

[Andy]

To the United fans attempting to lake the moral high ground.

The fact that you started chanting 'where's your Munich Song now' when the Heysel and Hillsborough disasters occured - shows they are no better.

Just because the disasters are not directly mentioned, United fans are mocking the deaths of people associated with Liverpool.

[bobobillo]

I have read comments here (and Liverpool fanzine websites discussing this blog) asserting that these sort of chants have gone on for decades since the Munich disaster. I'm not sure that is true. I was a regular match goer at Anfield in the 70s and 80s, a time of considerable violence on the terraces, but I do not recall hearing this sort of chanting. I was at Wembley in 1977 for the FA Cup Final between Liverpool and Man Utd and I don't remember any chants about Munich then. I DO remember the Utd supporters applauding the Liverpool players after the match, ahead of Liverpool's participation in the European Cup Final four days later. They may not have been so generous had they not just won the match (against the run of play) but even so, it doesn't sound like the sort of thing that would happen now. I suspect there has been a coarsening of relations amongst these clubs in the years since then, fuelled by bitterness, envy and internet-fuelled myth making on all sides.

[scousekraut]

One reason that I know longer go to games is because of the ignorant behaviour of a large minority of the spectators, which also includes much of the chanting. And you find it at most clubs and all the big ones.

Frankly, it is primitive.

[Paul D]

I was shocked to hear about the "2-0 to the murderers" chant. It is pretty pathetic when you think about it how low some of our so called "fans" have had to go, just to shut the opposition fans up. I have always thought that there is no place in the game for chants about hillsborough/heysel/munich and instead of just ignoring it for what it is i.e. drivel, people are trying to out do it.

Why?

Football songs are a great part of going to the game and by football songs I mean ones celebrating the players past or present, witty songs or traditional ones, not songs that take pride in other clubs misfortune or similarly sick songs about players or their families. By now we should have stamped these out like british football did with racist chants in the 80s and early 90s.

[Nic]

Unfortunately, these chants have been going on four decades now, and will continue for decades to come. If there is some other disaster, god forbid, there will be chants made for that too. They're all as bad as each other

[Jim B]

Good on you Oli for revealing some of the truth about what goes on at games like these.

It's been known about by supporters for a long time, but the FA and Premier League PR machine seem able to keep a lid on it quite well. Perhaps that has played a part in the Liverpool supporters' decision to chant back in this way - nobody else is standing up for them, so they take it into their own hands. But this isn't the way to do it.

Everton have been quick to condemn the slightest indiscretion from Liverpool supporters, yet Liverpool let similar and worse things pass. The governing bodies don't want it known about, and the anger that builds up between fixtures is not being dealt with. Luckily, so far, the anger is being turned into "funny" chants.

It's time the clubs, and the FA, admitted that there's a problem here and dealt with it. If there'd been a racist chant at the match then - quite rightly - that club would have been fined and possibly punished in other ways. Clubs are even fined for streakers running onto the pitch - yet songs as offensive as these are let go without a word.

Fans themselves need to try harder to educate each other as to why singing songs about Shipman and Heysel isn't funny. Not all of those who sing these songs are going to be "bad" people - just a little ignorant and slow on the uptake.

It wouldn't hurt at all for the management of LFC, EFC and MUFC to get together and draft a joint statement condeming the songs sung on those subject, and to threaten expulsion for anyone singing them.

No decent person can defend singing about Munich, or Heysel, or Hillsborough for any reason whatsoever. It doesn't matter if "they started it" - just stop it!

[Fitz]

I don't mean to be flippant, but the fact that both words begin with an "H" does not make the Heysel and Hillsborough disasters comparable.

Why do Liverpool fans continue to lump the two together? Or does it suit their purpose to do so?

Both were terrible tragedies; one for Liverpool the other for Juventus.

[Paulie_Walnuts]

I've attened countless Everton game home and away, and I can honestly say I have never heard any Hillsbrough song/chant get an airing. Of course I can accecpt there is always going to be a few idiots, but to suggest Evertonians mocking the tradgey is a regular occurance is pure lies, and I would bank on any blue backing me up on this. It's far too close to home to be allowed to turn into ammo against ou red friends. Maybe some Liverpool fans want to believe it's true as they feel it would give their own sick actions some justification, but sorry, it's not.

[Steve]

I think Oli's post has gone right over the heads of some people. Of course Bobby Charlton can't have enjoyed Liverpool fans' unforgivable songs about Munich. Oli's point was that for United supporters to use their OWN tragedy to bait Liverpool fans was pretty low too. Ditto "one-nil to the murderers".

It's pretty depressing that people are now popping up to claim the moral high ground, despite the fact that the penultimate paragraph of Oli's piece said everything that needs to be said about how low some fans of Liverpool, Everton and United have all sunk at times in recent history.

[Paul Brannon]

Unlike Tom, I have seen Evertonians regularly disrespecting the Hillsborough dead so no, it most certainly is not an internet rumour. On Saturday, in the stand to our left, numerous Evertonians were making the pushing gesture and the hands over the face "crushing" gesture. When I say numerous, I don't mean the odd one or two but several dozens and most of them looked outwardly respectable and ordinary. These gestures increased in number and frequency after each goal and were particularly noticeable when Evertonians started leaving the stands early in the last 20 minutes.

Like most Liverpudlians, I have sat amongst Evertonians at derbies at both Goodison and Anfield and have listened disgusted at the hatred spouted forth. Phrases like, "Let's meet at the dead men's gate" or about spitting on the eternal flame to commemorate the Hillsborough disaster are far more common in the last five years than they ever were previously.

I can only conclude Tom either doesn't go to derby matches, is very lucky in the area of the stadium in which he sits or he's practising some serious self-delusion.

[Greg]

Nobody should be surprised that football fans are aprt to chant obscene or offensive songs. There are apparently no lengths to which they won't go to upset rival fans. But what really dismays me is the indignation race: 'My club's fans may let themselves down, but they're nothing compared with their rivals'. I can sense it now - the story about the United players' post-match song is fuelling a wave of outrage among the Liverpool fans. They want to know more so they can vindicate their loathing of United. The truth is they'll enjoy the sense of outrage. And that's what is really offensive - not the obscene songs but the sanctimony...

hmmmm,
"I just did not really think that Liverpool fans, of all fans, would try to score points by turning the tables and singing it back in a way that made a joke (whether you like it or not) of a disaster that claimed the lives of 39 innocent football supporters."
The same Liverpool fans, "of all fans", who have been singing Munich chants at Manchester United fans for longer than I care to remember.

[Disgrace]

I have often wondered what Sir Bobby Charlton thinks when he hears United fans at Anfield asking “Where’s your famous Munich song?”

========

Don't know, but he couldn't have enjoyed the 27 years of Liverpool munich chants

[steve]

Neil 98,
I'm not justifying anything, As I said I don't sing those songs at the match, not even when I'm at Anfield, but its not what LFC fans did a generation ago and have since stopped, its what they sang on their last visit to OT in the spring. The t-shirts are reprehensible of course but because a few pratts sell them doesn't mean it represents all of us. We all have idiots in our midst. My point was and is that LFC are getting no worse than they have continually dished out for decades right up to the present day

[michael]

as a united season ticket holder and away match goer. i know alot of fans are bitter towards our success. eg. "everyone who supports united is a cockney" bla bla bla

every away ground i visit. i see the small time fans mocking munich trying to wind us up. but we have more class.

liverpool.city and leeds have always mocked munich in a large element. why doesnt the author write about 3000 liverpool fans singing munich at OT last season?

liverpool sang munich up until hillsbrough. and then when we played them they stopped singing it ? so we sang. "wheres your famous munich songs" but they started up again. and give all the gestures at games.

personally i feel the scouse fans are hypocrites. they always say justice for the 96 etc.. and want everyones sympthony.

well how about you respect other tragedies then ?

does anyone else remember the flag they held from the "famous kop" saying " chelsea helicopter landing zone" mocking the crash that killed thier chairman?

[steve]

It’s a downward spiral sadly. I draw the line at the ‘Murderers’ chant because I think its too far. But as a United supporter it got interminably boring to listen to LFC fans bang on about how insular they are and how special they are because nobody cared about them in years past. Most regional cities got left behind for years and have had to regenerate themselves, Manchester included. They put the boot in about Munich from 1958 right through to1985 until the day their own tragedy occurred. They then scream righteous indignation about the songs sang back at them about Heysel. They were both tragedies, but the vocal majority of LFC fans saw fit to mock what happened in Munich for 27 years without reply so to expect anything else back in return from some United fans is pointless and unrealistic.

It is over the line to sing songs about all those events, but if someone gives you abuse about something that matters to you or that you identify with, then a lot of people will respond in kind. You cannot seriously expect every person to maintain a dignified silence and hope that action alone will shut up the other fans. I take your point Oliver that you find it inexcusable but, what do you, or they for that matter, expect? It’s a fierce rivalry that’s gone on for decades with wounds that run deep on both sides. It’ll probably never change unfortunately

[John]

Sorry to disappoint 'Tom' but i saw several Everton fans putting there hand over the face before making an early exit from the Park End. But as Dave says everyone has there share of idiots. But if we are talking 'internet rumours' can we put this rubbish about Lee Carsley to bed please? Its never been sung and hopefully never will. Oh and i admit the Lescott stuff is abit out of order, but Yakubu just gets called fat. I'm sure he can cope with that

[Steve]

Great post, Oli.

I have to agree with Saeed's point. Last season I heard the usually excellent John Murray on Radio 5 Live praising United fans for the atmosphere they were making while you could clearly hear "without killing anyone" in the background. I suspect quite a lot of commentators literally don't listen what gets sung half the time.

[Chilaver]

To be honest mate i think you have lost touch with the tribal rivalries. Did you watch sky sports news the day city took over? City fans still continued to sing about munich in the background, whilst liverpool fans and leeds fans still bing it up (recently old trafford had munich written on the walls following liverpool had played a semi final there). Utd fans dont tend to directy sing about hillsborogh but instead like to remind liverpool fans that pre 1989 they sang, and continued to sing munich songs, although at anfield the other week i did see a minority of united fans singing direct hillsboro songs and more recently united fans have consistently sung about heysel. I think its pretty wierd how liverpool can sing about heysel like that though when their fans seem to protest furiously when the slightest bit of blame gets put on them for either heysel or hillsborogh. Then theres tottenham fans sing outright racst songs about Adebayor whilst the lescott/gerrard/shields songs remain in merseyside. Alot of these songs are wrong, and are ainly sung by drunk people at football matches, people who normally wouldnt sing suc songs and probably do realise the wrongs in the songs. But ultimatly its fooball and its passion and what gets sung inside fooball grouns shouldnt be taken too seriously despite the serious connotations

[Rob Russell]

I entirely agree with Oliver Kay's article and his response to the apologists who tried to defend the moronic chanting of a certain section of Liverpool's fans on Saturday.

I am a season ticket holder at Anfield and believe that our club has some of the best and most genuine (in every sense of the word) supporters in the world. And in general, the judgement of Liverpool fans is second to none. We appreciate good football, are passionate about our team but not to the extent that we are blind to our weaknesses or to the strengths of others. Our club is built on integrity, fairness, honesty. Shankly talked about these things often. When Jamie Redknapp left the club he described it in one word "honourable". As a group we let ourselves down on Saturday. We allowed ourselves to be cheapened by entering into a tit-for-tat exchange when we should have known better.

Coming from Liverpool, I find it extremely distressing that disasters on the scale of Hillsborough and Heysel are employed for the sake of cheap point scoring by certain opposition fans. I doubt that many of the Everton or United fans who choose to denegrate the memory of the dead in this way were even alive at the time of the either disaster.

For me though the greatest hurt comes when the insults are hurled by fellow scousers. Neighbours, colleagues and in some cases friends, annonymised in the crowd. I doubt that these insults come from the people who, 19 years ago, wept after Hillsborough but I do feel that these people owe a duty to educate the younger generation. Liverpool is one of the few cities in this country that has a real sense of community. Lets not lose that scouse solidarity.

[Adam]

Thank you for this, I am a Liverpool supporter and now living in Scotland have seen first hand the riduculous lengths some people go to over what is at the end of the day a pigs bladder being kicked about, I will never take my son to an old firm game. I'm all for rivalry between fans, but a friendly rivalry that relates to on the field matters. To trivialise such disasters is dispicable on all sides.

[Alex]

I think the problem with what you said, is that this has happened at most clubs, for a long time now - to suddenly be surprised that it happened at the derby? You may not be a novice at Merseyside football, but it would seem you are at football chants - you even reference many yourself. In what way is this new or surprising? Yes it's wrong, yes it should be highlighted and stopped, but to suggest it's solely Liverpool and Everton who have crossed the line is ridiculous!

[steve boyle]

It’s a downward spiral sadly. I draw the line at the ‘Murderers’ chant because I think its too far. But as a United supporter it got interminably boring to listen to LFC fans bang on about how insular they are and how special they are because nobody cared about them in years past. Most regional cities got left behind for years and have had to regenerate themselves, Manchester included. They put the boot in about Munich from 1958 right through to1985 until the day their own tragedy occurred. They then scream righteous indignation about the songs sang back at them about Heysel. They were both tragedies, but the vocal majority of LFC fans saw fit to mock what happened in Munich for 27 years without reply so to expect anything else back in return from some United fans is pointless and unreasonable.

It is over the line to sing songs about all those events, but if someone gives you abuse about something that matters to you or that you identify with, then a lot of people will respond in kind. You cannot seriously expect every person to maintain a dignified silence and hope that action alone will shut up the other fans. I take your point Oliver that you find it inexcusable but, what do you, or they for that matter, expect? It’s a fierce rivalry that’s gone on for decades with wounds that run deep on both sides. It’ll probably never change unfortunately.