When refs are seeing things, the cost of Barry and Valdano's Arsenal dream

Gabriele Marcotti

I don't have a problem with referees making mistakes, though, obviously better referees make fewer mistakes than worse ones. But it's one thing if you make a mistake because you didn't see something or because you interpreted something in a way which turned out to be incorrect. It's quite another when you make a mistake because you think you saw something which did not happen.

We're told that Howard Webb disallowed Mark Viduka's goal for Newcastle against Fulham because of a foul Kevin Nolan committed on Mark Schwarzer. The Fulham goalkeeper himself said after the game that Nolan grabbed him and shoved him as the corner kick was being taken. I'll give Schwarzer the benefit of the doubt, maybe he was confusing that play with a different one. But I have no idea what Webb saw (or thought he saw). The replays are pretty clear. Nolan just stands there with his back to Schwarzer. There is no foul (or, at least no foul "as the corner kick is taken" as Schwarzer claims). Unless there is a special camera angle (one which only Webb can see), the referee got this very wrong and he did so in a very bad way.

It sort of reminded me of a game between Parma and Juventus, back in May of 2000. Juventus were going head-to-head with Lazio for the Serie A title and were leading 1-0 at home against Parma. With one minute to go, Fabio Cannavaro (who, at the time, played for Parma) headed in the equalizer but the referee, Massimo De Santis, mysteriously disallowed it for a foul which, like Webb, only he could see.

Judge for yourself here (it's at 7:09)

The cost of Barry

Aston Villa finished in sixth place on 60 points last season. This year they'll either finish fifth or sixth with either 59, 60 or 62 points (they're currently sixth on 59 with one game to go). Last summer, Martin O'Neill famously turned down an £18 million bid from Liverpool for Gareth Barry. Now that Barry has a year left on his contract, if Villa fail to re-sign him they would most likely have to sell him for £12m, at least according to Oli Kay's piece.

When you put it that way, Barry's contribution this year cost Villa £8.5m (£2.5m in wages plus £6m which is the difference in what they could have sold him for last year and what they'll get this year).

Was it worth it? In my humble opinion, it was but only if a season of working with O'Neill persuades Barry that Villa is the right club for him and he decides to extend his deal keeping him at Villa Park. If, on the other hand, he turns down the extension, effectively forcing the club to sell him, then the answer is a resounding "no". Few, if any, players are worth £8.5m a year and Barry, however gifted, isn't one of them.

Valdano's Arsenal dream

Reading Matthew Syed's spirited defence of Arsene Wenger and the aesthetic merits of his Arsenal side brought to mind the words of Jorge Valdano. When I went to see the great man a few years ago he said: “People often say results are paramount, that, ten years down the line the only thing which will be remembered is the score, but that’s not true. What remains in people’s memories is the search for greatness and the feelings that engenders. We remember Arrigo Sacchi’s AC Milan side more than we remember Fabio Capello’s AC Milan side, even though Capello’s Milan was more successful and more recent. Equally, the Dutch Total Football teams of the 1970s are legendary, far more than West Germany, who beat them in the World Cup final in 1974, or Argentina, who defeated them in the 1978 final. It’s about the search for perfection. We know it doesn’t exist, but it’s our obligation towards football and, maybe, towards humanity to strive towards it. That’s what we remember. That’s what’s special.”

Limiting myself to the World Cup, I would add to those sides Hungary in 1954, an immortal side which also fell at the final hurdle. Despite jingoistic flicks like "The Miracle of Berne", we will remember the likes of Ferenc Puskas, Nandor Hidegkuti, Sandor Kocsis and Zoltan Czibor forever, whereas their opponents will fade into obscurity. (If only Hungary had a movie industry like Germany's...)

All that is fine and well until you consider that clubs ultimately serve the fans (regardless of whether it's simply a commercial transaction - i.e. if they don't get what they want, they won't watch - of if you believe in a greater moral imperative). Which is why it would be great if you could get a straight answer from the majority of Gooners: do you want to continue down the Wenger path with all it implies or would you rather take a leap of faith and turn to somebody else?

Comments

[matt]

Wenger out, get a new more dynamic coach, the football by his side this season has largely been boring with lots of negative sideways passing with lack of creativity in the box and poor tactics by the manager leading to some very embarassing results not seen at Arsenal in decades.... soccer is about action and trophies - wenger has failed for 5 years to produce the goods - time for change or Arsenal will be a Liverpool and still be waiting for another league title in 20 years time!!!

[Paul Taylor]

Hi Gab, I think you can get a straight answer on Wenger from many fans.

I'm a regular at the Emirates with my son and whilst the Wenger 'project' is frustrating in terms of trophies its unarguable in terms of entertainment and value for money, something I judge football on against other forms entertainment before buying my tickets.

I can't fathom fans who are prepared to not only pay, but watch utter dross week after week as they claim its all about the result, its just not my bag, if I pay £100 for 2 seats I want to enjoy myself, this doesn't always mean slaughtering a team, at least I know Arsenal will set out to play football the right way and if the other lot come to do the same we'll get a game.

Many will claim this win at all costs makes them 'real' fans, I'd say it just makes them idiots.

Its inevitable that Wenger is getting some pelters, but really Arsenal fans should look at what he's achieving on the budget and then ask who on earth would replace him and do this, with the same level of style, have the forgotten the George Graham era already ?

Careful what you wish for should be foremost for those saying Wenger should go.

[DR]

Does the answer to the Wenger question have to be so cut and dried? The problem with Arsenal fans is that they feel they are being lied to by the board and patronised by Wenger. The fans do nt believ that this team has the hunger to win (or seriously challenge) for the big trophies and for large parts of the season, the football wasn't nearly as good as our reputation has you believe.

Too often, the football was slow, static and uninspired, hence the large number of draws, until Arshavin gave the side a kick start.

What needs to happen is fairly simple. Firstly, Gab as you say yourself, the board need to declare to the fans what is available. If the property situation has impacted on team building, say so. We're not going anywhere, we're fans of the club. Tell us.

Secondly, and most improtantly Wenger has to find his fire. He used to be hacked off at the prospect of coming second. Look at his face after the FA Cup win of 2003, after having blown the title. Vieira and Seaman collect the trophy and Wenger looks like he's at a funeral. Standards have dropped and ambition has been lost. You cant guarantee you'll finish first, you should be able to guarantee, you'll be able to go for it.

Personally, I couldn't care less if we have money to spend or not. I would rather Wenger take on a 'No excuses, no complaints and challenge each other every day' attitude which forges a steelier resolve. Arsenal have issues and I reckon 90% of them could be fixed at London Colney.

And dont tell us that we are on the verge of success having been slaughtered twice at home inside 5 days when we see guys being outrun, outmuscled, outfought, out-thought and outclassed. Admit the season is a failure, and that we will move heaven and earth to be a damn sight better next season. The fans would be back onside in a heartbeat.

Anyway Gab, you asked for a straight answer. I want Wenger to stay. But I want the real Arsene Wenger back. The guy who never accepted any position lower than first, had a team who would fight as well as play and went for it regardless of how much money was at his disposal.

Regards

[carlosthegooner]

Hi Gabriele, great article. I'm still convinced that the path Wenger goes down is the right one, but as we all know he could do with a little 'short term' thinking. The players coming through are the best we've had in 20+ years, since Rocky, Thomas, Adams, Keown, Merson, Quinn, Hayes and Caesar (I jest) came through in the space of 5 or so years. just a spine of strength required. The problem for Wenger is that everyone thought the spine needed strengthening at the start of the season and now it's been proved factual.

[Mike, Bristol]

For my money championships are built with a solid spine that allows the rest of the side to go out and pull the opposition apart. The difference between, for example, Arsenal's title winning sides of a few years ago and that of today is that a backbone of Adams and Bould at centre back with Patrick Vieira in centre midfiled allowed the likes of Dennis Bergkamp, Marc Overmars, Robert Pires et al to do their thing. Sure, they still had to work for the team but they didn't have to work that extra bit to make up for the solid foundation, or lack of.

Wenger has several exceptional footballers in his current side, most notably Eduardo, van Persie and Fabregas, but other than possibly Kolo Toure there is no spine. Toure needs a partner he can trust and the midfield needs someone to scare the opposition and give the side some bite further up the park. If Wenger is to invest anywhere it must be the centre of his own half of the field. I'm sure he already knows that, he just needs to accept that he can't simply bring an under 18's team through the ranks year on year and produce winners. He has a remarkable eye for young talent but that must be allied with bringing in experience from time to time.

The recent criticism of him is needless and misplaced and it won't last once he has the side back to something like it used to be. And if the mornic boo boys get there way, I'll pay 0.1% of his wages to manage Plymouth. I'm sure we can find the rest of the money from somewhere!

[Tanmay]

Arsenal fans are being treated to the most delightful, free-flowing, total football at 1/4th the budget of the teams above Arsenal (teams which can win, spend obscene amounts, but can only dream of playing like Arsenal). This beautiful football is all thanks to Wenger. It the kind of football that has given football the title of 'the beautiful game'. Why should Arsenal fans not be obliged to Wenger (let alone want him to leave)?

[Stephen Herndon]

Let's be reasonable about the wenger issue. The fact is that if Arsenal had done the double over middlesbrough last season, they, not united would have been champions. I say this only to point out that we live in the "now" so much in football that people forget how slender the margin between a title and failure is.

Arsenal played this season without 3/4 of last season's starting midfield and about 3 months of the year without all of last year's starting midfield. I tend to think any team facing that kind of change would suffer a set back.

The simple fact is that neither Song, Diaby, or Denilson proved to be a consistently reliable replacement for Flamini, and despite all of their potential neither nasri nor Walcott proved to be able to provide the creative consistency of Hleb or Rosicky.

Does Wenger need to bring in 1 or 2 players? Yes. But to suggest that he be sacked or ushered out the door is absurd.

The question that needs to be asked by Arsenal is not whether or not Song, Diaby, or Denilson is good enough, we know that they are not, certainly not yet. The question is whether the likes of Adebayor, van Persie, and yes, even Fabregas have the potential to have the consistent impact of Henry, Bergkamp, and Vieria, If the answer is yes, then Arsenal need only a few parts. If the answer is no, then it's time to cash in and rethink things.

[Lee]

Can we please put to bed the idea that Arsenal are a fabulous side to watch week in week out?

How many players in their squad would you pay to see? I make it none. Fabregas and van Persie at a push, but they dont exactly make your heart skip a beat.

The side with Veira, Henry, Ljunberg, Pires was truly fabulous. They passed, moved and counter attacked in a way not often seen. They also dominated teams pyhsically, which laid the platform for all of the pretty stuff. The current side are such a distance off of Wengers greatest side that they dont even deserve to be mentioned in the same breath. they may light up the odd game, more so since the addition of Arshavin, but they remain a raw side, full of players that feel that they are owed something. When they turn it on, great, but they really dont do it very often at all.

[HugoC]

Martin Samuel wrote today about budget restraints at Arsenal and board members being out of line when they say money is available to buy players. If this is true, if indeed Wenger has limited resources because of the construction of the Emirates Stadium and is just being professional in accepting it and not saying a word, then everything changes, the general perception that he is just being stubborn would fall apart. Is there concrete information that confirms this, or is it just speculation?

[Tim Harrington]

Gab,

In the podcast you mentioned "Newcastle could go down due to a referee's mistake", when we all know they have been awful for the majority of the season. If they are down in the bottom three after 38 games are played, they deserve to go down.

Regarding Arsenal, it amuses me when people talk of Arsenal's lack of spending. When the truth is they have built a massive new stadium and spent money on developing the old ground into flats etc. Why do people ignore this? They developed the stadium in order to generate more cash, they were not forced to do this.. They then planned to transform Highbury "to pay for the stadium", which seems to have gone a bit belly up by all acounts?

[Ariel]

Good point on Barry - another thing you should consider is what value you put on Barry's suitors (Liverpool and to a lesser degree, Arsenal) *not* having him for this season? In the case of Liverpool, I can't imagine they would have fared any better owing to the fabulous season Xavi Alonso had. And, if that's the commercial decision Martin O'Neill made, what difference does it therefore make if they make him stay and leave for nothing in 2010 instead of getting 10/12 million this season?

[Chris Hume]

I think that one of the problems here is that most media commentators have done what they typically do and sought to simplify a quite complex issue. Wenger is a genius whose teams play beautiful football and he works on a shoestring. Some fans want Wenger out. They must be mad/spoilt/thick/new/unrealistic or a mixture of all of them. The truth is that for a vast number of reasons large numbers of Arsenal fans have fallen out of love with the team. It is not about failing to win trophies, but like the wife who has fallen out of love with her husband, once he stops providing financially, there's nothing else left to keep them together. Continued promises of money next month fall on deaf ears. So the real question is why have the fans fallen out of love with the team to such an extent that they boo them, they castigate Wenger and the players at the shareholders meeting and leave the stadium early in droves? You can do a real psychoanalysis job on what it is to be a football fan but I think the following elements are key to understanding this falling out of love:

i) English fans - and Arsenal fans - will forgive many technical deficiencies, but they detest laziness, show-pony's and fair weather players. That is the way we are. Arsenal have too many of these types
ii) Arsenal have moved from being a club soundly rooted in its local community and the first port of call for top aspiring players from the London region to a club that could be based anywhere in the world and not seen as particularly welcoming to English players. Hence no connection with the fans any more
iii) The media love Arsenal's playing style but actually the fans are exasperated with it - and with good reason. It is often dull actually, it is too one-dimensional and there is no platform or 'spine' so physical sides cannot be overcome. Arsenal are actually very predictable and predictability is boring.
iv) English fans appreciate qualities in players such as endurance, leadership, tackling and obduracy (think Bobby Moore, Tony Adams) as well as silky on the ball skills. Arsenal have abandoned these attributes when the last of the inherited (+Cole and Campbell) players went
v) Repeatedly telling people something that patently isn't true -even if they want to believe that it is- breaks the bonds of trust and leaves the recipient cynical and weary. Wenger can tell us until he's blue in the face that Song, Eboue, Denilson and co are great players. We know they are not. We also get told every year that he be judged at the end of the season. When we then do so, he gets upset and asks for one or even two more years.

There are a number of personal reasons for each fan, but I think that collectively media commentators have to understand this. We don't care if they (the media) LIKE us a bit (or even a lot)more, fans LOVE their club and they want to love their team and manager. When people fall out of love there is normally a reason, and in this case there are a number of good reasons. Don't dismiss people as idiots for doing so. PS guys actually it is the 'NEW' fans who are much more pro-wenger in my view it is us 'OLD' fans who feel this 'out of love' the most.

[Rhys Jaggar]

I personally think that what needs to happen at Arsenal is for Wenger to let go of a few things to return to what he does best: create thrilling, winning football teams. Hopefully his chat with Gazidis will have prepared for that to happen....

It's difficult to say from the outside, but the last three years the defence has not been tight enough and the final third hasn't been incisive enough. Beautiful triangles in the middle is fine, but the total product isn't quite there.

2008 was a bit like 2003 - thrilling but unfulfilling. 2007 I saw the promise and said in March 'next year they could do really well'. This season, I wondered and felt frustrated.

Key for 2010? Rosicky back to his best? Eduardo scoring lots? A replacement for Flamini? Back four drilled and resolute? And shooting much more clinical?

Well, that's one set of answers. But reality is more complex and fluid........guess we'll have to wait and review on September 1st after the window closes........

[Greg P]

Gab,

I don't think you can say that Gareth Barry has cost Villa £8.5 million this season as you're taking £18 million as the figure that he would have been sold for.

At no point was this likely as he was clearly priced out of a move by MO'N - who came up with that ridiculous figure.

Realistically, Barry would never have gone for more than £12 million.

Anyway, other than that, another fine piece sir!

[Nicky]

"Arsenal have abandoned these attributes when the last of the inherited (+Cole and Campbell) players went"

These players were brought in by Arsene Wenger and not inherited. However the point is mostly correct in that we are no longer as physical team since that time. I would argue that the team last season had good amounts of "endurance, leadership, tackling and obduracy" and that is why we challenged last term.

[Sam]

Straight answer from a Gooner here Gab, yes. 100%. I hate the fans who have made Arsene feel this way and am embarresed by their actions.

[Chris Hume]

Just to clarify Nicky I MEANT the last of the inherited players PLUS Cole and Campbell hence the '+' sign. Apologies if this was not clear

[t]

I want the unhappy arsenal fans to tell me who they think would do better than wenger and how. With the same resources as he has. Please tell me cos i really like Wenger and Arsenal. And i think hes taken max out of what he has been given.

[Murray]

Gab, wasn't the disallowed goal in that Juve - Parma game part of Luciano Moggi's referee fixing scam at Juventus?

[Sam]

Hi Gab. Great column. As Italy is my adopted home I always appreciate it when you subvert the stereotypical views many English fans have of Italian football. You were right on the Roman hooliganism debate and on Chelsea's catenaccio. I think you're wrong to suggest that Howard Webb had ulterior motives in his decision at Newcastle however. I'm suprpised no one has mentioned Kevin Nolan's previous history of getting away with obstructing the goalkeeper. It seems to me that Howard Webb didn't want to make the same mistake as other PL referees and that influenced his decision.

[Marty Price]

Matt you confusse personality with dynamism. Wenger is a dynamic coach! His record proves that he is. If he had spent as much as Benitiz or even Tottenham in recent years people would still be moaning and groaning. The man is doing a great job when you consider that when they play ManU they are looking at a roster of upwards of 130 million compared to what 30-35 million for the Gunners. These people calling for Wenger's head and trophies are in totally "spun and done" from us out here in Cali, that is the West Coast equivalent of DAFT!!

[Matt Sommer]

Gab,

You're too hard on Howard Webb in this case and since Allyson Rudd wasn't there to give an opposing view, I'll venture. I'll tell you what Howard Webb saw on the disallowed goal. Before the corner is kicked, Nolan is reaching out to ensure that he is in front of Schwarzer. When Schwarzer moves, Nolan follows him in an effort to cut him off from the ball. Webb then sees Schwarzer run into the back of Nolan and flay about as though he was impeded. So Webb saw Nolan impeding Schwarzer. Schwarzer could've got around Nolan and probably made an error but Nolan was trying to get in his way before the kick. Did Webb see that or only Schwarzer running into his back? Not sure, but I can understand Webb's call based on his what he saw on the field. Newcastle goes down not due to that disallowed goal as much as Martins poor finishing. He has his moments but a better striker finishes the chances he saw. He's a poor man's Drogba minus the flopping.

See Nolan following Schwarzer at the 3:00 minute mark -
http://www.101greatgoals.com/videodisplay/2538139/

[jim]

Wenger is undoubtedly a great coach and has done heaps for us, but their are other good coaches out there, even some in the league. Take Moyes or Hughes, neither have proven themselves as good as Wenger but both have shown promise. I would argue that different coaches are needed by different teams at different times and possibly right now Wenger may not be the one for Arsenal.

This may seem harsh but his it seems to me that without a backbone of English players his dream is not only unrealistic but actually nigh on impossible. He talks of creating a young team which can grow and mature together as United's team of the mid-nineties have done. This is patently ridiculous when everyone can tell that Fab does not intend to see out his career in England, Ade and Van Persie always talk about leaving unless this, or this is done and we've allready seen players like Flamini and Hleb decide to move on for one reason or another. Even if we were to start winning things there isn't one amoung these foreign stars other then possibly Toure (who's alot older) who wouldn't at least be open to the possiblity of playing in a different country. The team he is trying to build will never happen.

At the same time Wenger refers to giving chances to the players allready here when not signing anyone to replace Flamini or Gilberto. Great for Diaby, Song and Dennilson, not so great for results, but fine if that's the plan. But why then is he happy to splash £5M on 17 year old Ramsey, he doesn't feel the need to give chances to young up and coming English midfielders like Lansbury or Frimpong? I like Ramsey but I can't say I see any logic in his signing last summer, especially if that out lay prevented us securing someone like Lorik Cana or Alonso.

To put it bluntly Wenger's policy and his actions seems somewhat hypocritical at times and whether he has little cash or not if he used it to replace what we lost last summer instead of on youngsters like Nasri and Ramsey we'd probably be in a better state now. Still at least if he turns good Ramsey will will probably stick around but if Nasri does become the "new Zidane" I imagine Madrid (or wherever) may just turn out to be his "dream club" after all.

[Petr]

Mr. Marcotti,

I'm not British, live in the US, and watch Arsenal when I can. I don't do that for any other team in England and few others anywhere else.

I agree completely with Valdano and I'd add that it's far more interesting to see Wenger try to succeed doing something different than to care whether Liverpool buy Gareth Barry or Chelsea sell Drogba.

[Gabriele Marcotti]

I just wanted to throw out the Arsenal debate, there isn't too much for me to add (except for in a few cases, which I've done below). It's a philosophical choice, I don't think there is a right or wrong, but there is a need for clarification.
1. Paul Taylor - Well said.. I bet your kid is being influenced by what he sees and this will affect what he regards as "good football" when he grows up.
2. DR - Good points, but is it Wenger who has changed or is the club really missing what Dein brought to the table? I'm not sure Wenger is less interested in winning today than he was a few years ago...
3. Tanmay - Have you seen Arsenal's wage bill? It's not 1/4 that of Chelsea, United and Liverpool.
4. Stephen Herndon - "The fact is that if Arsenal had done the double over middlesbrough last season, they, not united would have been champions" Nicely put.
5. HugoC - I'm pretty sure it isn't just speculation. Martin Samuel is one of the best in the business and if what he writes weren't accurate, you can be sure Arsenal would have piped up.
6. Tim - Just because you've been awful all season long doesn't mean you deserve to go down. If that were the case, as many as six Premier League sides should be relegated this year.
7.Chris Hume - Excellent post.
8. Greg P - £18m is the figure Villa turned down. So that's the number I went by. It doesn't really matter if he was worth that or not, that's how much Liverpool offered and that's how much Villa turned down.
9. Murray - Excellent question. Moggi was,of course, in charge at the time. The referee, De Santis, was later banned as part of the Calciopoli scandal, but that was for events five years later. So there is no concrete evidence that this decision was part of the scam. But you can guess what I think. And that's why I juxtaposed it with the Webb decision. Not because I think there's an English Moggi who hates Newcastle and manipulated Webb, but because if this episode had happened in a different time and place it would have been viewed very differently.

[Tom]

Wenger all the way. I am disgusted by the so called 'fans' that say he should go. If its trophys you want go support man u and leave the rest of us to enjoy our football and marvel at what AW has done for the club.

[Tom]

Gab,

The reason so many Arsenal fans have expressed concern over Wenger's role at Arsenal is they have been consistently misled by the media to believe that our lack of spending has been down to Wenger, and his youth project, rather than to the financial limitations resulting from our move to the Emirates and a frugal board. Wenger has been portrayed as a borderline-crazy obsessive idealist. Only since his thinly veiled threat to quit have the collective media made a decision to instead show our limited expenditure as imposed from above Wenger's head. Maybe you guys realised how much you'd miss one of the most intriguing characters in football, and one who has been incredibly open with the media. Oh yeah, and the best football the Premiership has ever seen.

[lawless]

I think you should be very careful what you insinuate about Howard Webb. Until you have some empirical truth of match fixing etc it seems highly irresponsible of you to cast aspersions on Webb's professional conduct. And if corruption is an issue, then television evidence will solve problems like the one mentioned.

[Sadiq]

I thought the reason why Gareth Barry did not move last summer was that Liverpool did NOT agree to pay the £18 million that O'Neill actually wanted, with their highest bid reported to have been £15 million. This was due to no club in turn willing to pay Liverpool as much for Alonso and them bafflingly spending £20 million on Keane.

[Chris]

This Arsenal/Wenger thing is just a London based media/London fan thing, andis highly suspect (playing with yourselves).
We know that the meda is totally biased towards Arsenal and Wenger, all a bit incestuous really.
The reality is he is a limited achiever, as are Arsenal and other London clubs.
When just one of your clubs can win the No.1 club trophy, the European Cup/Champs League, which clubs north of the smoke have done 11 times, then you can pretend to be on our level, right now you are not near it.
Until then, know your place as also rans.
Personally, I cannot wait for the fickle Arsenal fans to desert your games, because you are losers, for you to fall behind in your payments for the Emirates Stadium, and go broke and cease to exist. What would the London media and TV commentators do then? Presumably champion Spurs (no-one could love Chelski).
And why does Wenger hate English players so much, and why do you not write about that?
Come on media, try to embrace impartiality for once.

[Damian]

He has no money hasn,t had since we moved if you looked at the financial statements of the club you would know he has had no other choice you think he really wants to play Eboue instead of ribery i drive a 35K commodore not cause i like em better than Porsche

[Jake Howarth]

Gabriele, as a Villa fan I'm forced to say that you may be spot on about Barry. I would say, however, that O'Neill turned down no bid of £18m as no bid of £18m was made. It was also worth the gamble of keeping him, and when we were third briefly it looked to be paying off. How time flies.

What you insinuate about Howard Webb is unusual, not because you are insinuating the possibility of referree corruption, but because you chose to do so for this game rather than for the almost innumerable times that Manchester United especially seem to get more than the rub of the green. Now, I'm not suggesting that those decisions are fiddled in any way, but merely that if one was to pick any games to investigate, those would be more suspect than a bad decision at St. James' Park.

[DR]

How sad when trying to hava a sensible football debate to have someone like Chris ruin things with his childlike squealing.

Anyway, Gab

I think clubs, and teams, like any other industry need motors. Someone to drive things, someone to ignite others. Dein did do that, and maybe Gazidis might pick up that baton. But I'd argue that is Wenger's prime responsibility. He needs to lead and drag people along with him. He needs to set standards and expectations.

I'm an NFL fan as well and I think the most impressive coach in any sport I've seen recently is the Pittsburgh Steelers head coach Mike Tomlin, whose adult, mature demanding approach of the entire organisation (players, coaches, medical staff, fitness coaches)is a template for any sports team.

The guy is 36 years old, and won the Super Bowl in his 2nd year as coach, and was annoyed he didn't win it in his first as well. Before the NFL analogy is dismissed, Alex Ferguson said the most relevant book he has ever read in terms of managing a football team was Vince Lombardi's. Tomlin has the outlook you see in guys like Moyes and Ferguson. Regardless of money, the desire to be the absolute best is paramount, and not being able to spend the most money is certainly not going to stop them.

Having an ally at Director level though is a huge asset.

Gab, one other thing. What is your take on the point that Wenger could also help himself by freshening up the coaching staff? Not screaming for anyone's head but getting in one or two guys who could bring a few new ideas to the table, be sounding boards for him and maybe rejuvenate some of the coaching sessions. I'd like to see Martin Keown for one, working with the defenders as he did in 2006 when we got to the CL final setting a CL record for clean sheets. I reckon a guy like him could help guys like Djourou and Gibbs fulfil their potential.

[Scottie]

Chris, looks like you forgot to take your medication today. Wenger doesnt hate English players, it's just that Upson, Bentley, Pennant, Cole, Sidwell and some others he has nurtured have an inflated sense of their own self worth, and are unprofessional. That fivesome cost a lot more than Fabregas, Adebayor, Henry and Clichy. Others, like Walcott, Wilshere, Landsbury, Simpson etc, will turn out to be the backbone of the England team in 5 years time.
Anyway, I'm Scottish and couldnt care less about English players playing for Arsenal. AW is not paid by the FA.

[Phil]

Its very easy for people to say Barry is worth X amount of money and if we get that we should sell. But if we do sell who in the hell do we get to replace him. Mikel Arteta is the only player outside the top 4 with Barrys ability, what would he cost £25m? Utd paid £20m a peice for Carrick, Hargreaves and Anderson. Villa could get £40m for Barry its completely irrelevent if they can't find a player with his skills and experience to replace him.

So for all the geniuses who think we should sell our best player, who in the hell do we replace him with?

Barry is criminally underated, some football writers think Carrick is the player of the year and yet despite Barry not being a conventional holding players he's still picked ahead of him. Barry didn't even play that well on Saturday but he still setup our goal and put Gabby through one on one twice, if Alonso has done that people would be salivating.

[Ralph]

Chris from the "north" I am very sure when it comes to problems with repayments of debt everyone with half a brain knows MUTD and Liverpool will be fighting for that title soon and that day is surley coming!!! so carry on borrowing to buy players!! reaching cuckooland is not far away I'd say 3 yrs.....

[Ian Dunross]

Gab, only a small minority agitate for a managerial change at Ashburton. The straight answer from the cogent majority is simple: Stay, Arsene. We value your service. While many arsenal forums may be littered with throw away lines suggesting Wenger should go, these provide no more than an insight into the insensibility of some. Read those posts longer than a paragraph; you will see that in most supporters' minds, the contributions of Wenger to the AFC cannot be overstated.

As to beautfil football, I've said it before, I'd rather play like Arsenal and get pipped for trophies, than play like Chelsea at their worst and pinch a championship.

It's not just me either, if wages were taken out of the equation, how many players would choose Arsenal over Chelsea? My guess is, a large majority. Such a hypothetical question doesn't have to be answered either, the moment Chelsea are applauded from the San Siro, I'll change my tune.

[Joseph]

Chris I think I found your medication....come down south where the skies aren't as grey, the weather is not as wet and the fans no so cocky and arrogant. Your blog reminds me of my dissections in medical school, it looks disgusting and a complete mess.....so let me cut into it:-
1. 'Limited acievers' - Arsene has won the league twice, fa cup three times and reached the champions league final. These have occured in different seasons so clearly there is no limit!? With the utter rubbish that your spuing does that mean united are limited achievers if they would have won the 'quintuple' because they could not acieve any more.....of course not there is always room for improvement.
2 - 'Fickley'......how!? you even know the meaning of the word as you clearly haven't tried to apply it to gooners?
3. 'Missed Emirates payments' - do you think you are the landloard!?....clearly this hasn't hapenned as Arsenal have been there for their 4th year.
4. 'Go broke' - That is the funniest I think..how can Arsenal go broke on their tight budget, releasing profits every year whilst united and chelsea release massive loses. When the banks come screaming back for their money Arsneal are going to be laughing.
5. 'Champions Spurs' - come on not even you can belive that.
6. 'Hates English' - Walcott, Ramsey, Jeffers, Gibbs, Simpson, Hoyte, Bently, Upson.....giving all a chance in the first team.
Chris I actually feel disgusted at how much time I wrote to respond, your a fool and I feel deeply sorry for any football team that you support!

Mr Marcotti - Your a brilliant journalist and I love reading your work. Any gooners who feeel 4 years of not winning a trophy is terrible should see the gaps in the past. Arsenal have never dominated and have no right to on their budget and squad.
However next season if the big test for the gunners, they have really had bad luck with injuries this year. Look at their injury free 11: Almunia, Sagna, Toure, Gallas, Cliche, Arshavin, Fabregas, Rosicky, Walcott, Van Persie, Eduardo....good enough to match any.
Wenger knows he needs to strengthen the squad and I have every faith he will do.
Gooners back the team, quit the club level booing and get behind the boys because you never know 2010 could be our year. Gab - In Arsene We (every sensible gooner) Trust'

[h]

Every Wenger fanboy (including journalists) should be directed to Chris Hume’s great post. The Times could do worse than sign him up (to use the phrase du jour).

"if wages were taken out of the equation, how many players would choose Arsenal over Chelsea? My guess is, a large majority."

What more evidence do you need that Wenger has brainwashed them all? Hilarious!
The idea players would value being applauded from the San Siro more than all those titles won by Chelsea is an illusion that exists only in the peculiar minds of deluded and arrogant Arsenal
fans. And Wenger. Keeping kidding yourselves.

[Gabriele Marcotti]

1, Lawless - Let me make this extremely clear. This is not about corruption, it's about a decision which - in my opinion - is entirely mysterious. I haven't seen a shred of evidence that Nolan committed a foul, have you? This could easily be cleared up if Webb came out and explained (note, explained NOT justified, he doesn't need to justify) his decision. And if he got it wrong, so be it. He's still a good ref.
2. Sadiq - What I heard from the Liverpool end was that £18m had been turned down and the LIverpool board did not authorize a higher bid. Either way, whatever was offered (and, obviously, MON knows exactly how much) should be factored in to how much Barry cost Villa this season.
3. Jake - I'm not insinuating corruption, I'm insinuating a very bizarre decision which has yet to be explained. Usually with corruption (or the favoring of bigger sides) you see it manifested in many little decisions throughout the game (granting free kicks, etc.) not big, obvious ones. Viduka's goal aside, apart from Basson'g sending off (which, I guess, could have gone either way) Webb was pretty much down-the-middle for most of the game.
I just find it curious that a bigger deal hasn't been made of it, especially when you compare it to what followed Chelsea v Barcelona.
4. DR - Interesting points, especially on Tomlin. But I would be careful about equating the will to be the best with the will to get the best results. Remember Clough saying he "wanted to win the league BETTER than Revie"? Maybe that's what Wenger is pursuing: playing the best football. Either way, I think it's dangerous to question somebody's will to win.
As for the coaching staff, maybe it could use some freshening up, but, to be honest, none of us are at the training sessions so it's very difficult to judge from afar.
5. Phil - Nobody is irreplaceable. If MON thought Barry was irreplaceable, he would have given him a gigantic pay rise and kept him at the club. Heck, it would have been cheaper than spending all the money Villa spent last summer. Instead, he obviously loves Barry's contribution, but he understands that Barry has a distinct price. And if he has to overpay for Barry (by giving him a certain type of contract) he's happy to take his chances elsewhere.

[vic]

Pires:"Arsenal need Arsene Wenger more than he needs Arsenal" An unsurprisingly parochial view from a man who never bothered to speak a word of English the 5 years he was here.

Aren't Arsenal fans embarrassed that their great club is reduced to a personality cult?

[Tim Harrington]

They do if they finish in the bottom three Gab.

The Arsenal discussion is wearing very thin, this is the third year in a row we have seen this debate. Arsenal are probably in the best hands at the minute, but clearly lack the funding. Having looked it up, The "Emirates" Stadium costs between £370m and £430m to put together depending on where you look. I assume this will pay off in the next 5 seasons or so? Either way, I expect Wenger is here to stay and see it through.

[Phil]

Gab isn't the definition of irreplaceable not having anyone to replace them with?

So surely if you can't think of anyone Martin O'Neill could realistically buy that would be better than Barry then surely thats exactly what he is.

I'm sure Sidwell or Reo coker could come in and do OK or we could spend £10m on a reasonable stand in but without champions league football or a silly wage structure we can't get anybody as good, so in my mind that makes him irreplaceable.

If you're not in the top 4 and you have a top 4 calibre player its damn near impossible to replace them.

[Chris Thorpe]

I looked up Vince Lombardi books on Amazon but not sure which one of them all is the best to buy??? Please make a suggestion (as Posted by: DR | 21 May 2009 11:09:07) as would be really keen on purchasing this...

[Joseph]

'H'....if your going to blog and abuse Arsenal fans at least put your first name. Otherwise if anyone wants to respond it is like they're adressing Rimmer from Red Dwarf.
How can you call Arsenal fans arrogant!? No Arsenal fan is saying we are better than our league position suggests. We are simply trying to explain to some fans that feel Wenger should leave that it is simply not the solution. It would be replacing a small problem with an even bigger one.
Arsene is Mr Arsenal, his phylosophy opitimises Arsenal's and he has built the mould it now boasts. Wenger has made fans realise how important he is to their success. Arsenal have never ever dominated, they have amazingly overachieved in the Wenger years and 4 years without a trophy is not a failure at all.
Gab, one big problem Arsenal have is free season tickets were given with anyone who bought Highbury flats. This meant a proportion of dedicated gooners were leapfrogged by not so loyal fans to a seat at Ashburton.
In addition as Emirates is a fantastic stadium lots of people go to meerly see the stadium and have a good day out, not to support an get behind the club they love. Also of course this means loads of corporate fans and workers are taken to have a day out at the stadium.
Inevitably this means a lot of fans are not life long gooners and remain quiet or boo when the results don't go our way or a player is not on his game. These fans are mainly responsible for the mass walkouts or booings. I know this may sound like a generalisation but I think a lot of Arsenal fans would agree with me.
Gab i'm going to throw the question back at you and hope you respond, what do you think is best for Arsenal?

[Gabriele Marcotti]

1. Phil - When I say nobody is irreplaceable it's within the context of what that player costs you. When Rooney left Everton they did not go out and try to find somebody who was better than Rooney. They spent the money on a combination of players who could help the team. And Everton actually improved once he left. MON doesn't think he's irreplaceable, he knows that there is a price (whether it's a very high wage demand or an attractive offer) at which he's ready to move on without Barry.

[jj]

So you think the behaviour of the Argentinian Dirk Kuyt has been classy? Moaning on in public about being substituted or benched (thereby insulting his teammates), shamelessly manipulating the fans and insulting the best British manager of all time in saying the old man doesn't like him. If that's your definition of classy behaviour I'd hate to know what classless would be.

[Rajiv]

Gab, I enjoyed and concur with your piece about the great losing teams from past World Cups that people still revere more than the eventual winners, but noticed the glaring absence of Brazil 1982... I understand it would be sacrilege in your home country and that they may poison your next polenta, but surely even you have to admit that the aesthetic amalgam of Zico, Falcao, Socrates, Cerezo, Junior, Eder and Leandro (forget Serginho and Valdir Peres, obviously) deserve to dine at a higher table in the Pantheon than Bearzot's men (granted, we'll save a seat for Rossi). Having read your eulogy to Tele Santana a couple of years ago, I know that was a side you - and the rest of the football universe - continue to admire greatly. Come on, don't fight me on this...

[Reshad]

Ralph, regarding MUFC's debt I don't think the debt is to buy players. AFAIK the debt is because of the money the Glazers borrowed to take over the club.

[jim]

don't forget that good ref collina, who finished with a "flourish". the italian disallowed a perfectly legitimate everton goal against a on-the-ropes villarreal, possibly costing everton a place in the champions league group stage. what a way to finish his career, what a shame