Old Firm bigots show true colours on Remembrance Day

 
 
Graham Spiers

Some final thoughts on the annual Old Firm hijacking of the poppy, as crass and contrived and insensitive as it all is.

For those of you unfamiliar with this scene, the problem is rooted in the cultural and political narrative surrounding Celtic FC. Increasingly, Celtic boasts a multi-dominational fanbase, in which some estimate that up 25 per cent of the club's support is now Protestant, but this hasn't stopped a core of political hardliners from objecting to the wearing of the poppy, given what they see as its symbolic link to a previously corrupt and cruel British political regime.

I must say I disagree with this overdramatised and somewhat earnest view of the humble poppy and Remembrance, but there you are. Both Celtic and Rangers are laden with political "baggage" - not much of it always argued eloquently let alone learnedly by its proponents - and so last Sunday, rather than stand inside Falkirk Stadium where a minute's silence was taking place, some Celtic fans chose to ignore the moment by deliberately arriving late for kick-off.

Enter, then, an equally obsessed group of Rangers supporters, with their paranoia and conspiracy theories growing by the minute. For that group it is essential, paramount even, that Celtic's support observes the minute's silence. To these Rangers diehards the poor poppy has come to mean Britain, patriotism, and even, in a faintly crass way, Protestantism. In other words, this "Irish scum" that we find in our midst - the oft-repeated phrase for the Irish-Scots who favour Celtic - can go back to Ireland if they don't like "our" ways.

As stupid and unsophisticated as this view is, it has even been repeated in certain Scottish tabloid sports columns over the years. Evidently, the old journalistic rule of thumb still prevails: if you are employed in the toy department, keep away from religion and politics (and certainly theology).

From this contrived scene we now have ludicrous conspiracy theories sprouting. At Falkirk on Sunday there wasn't a cheep to be heard inside the stadium during the minute's silence from either the Celtic or Falkirk fans, but that is erroneously believed by irate Rangers fans to be down to the fact that Sky television, who were broadcasting the match, deliberately obliterated "a protest" by turning their microphones off. Thus, for the Rangers hard core, dastardly Sky can be added to a burgeoning list, including the BBC, STV, Radio Clyde as well as umpteen newspapers, who are due to be boycotted for their "pro-Celtic" bias.

Folks, this saga, this pantomime, I'm afraid is my meal ticket. I'm surrounded by this stuff daily: resentment and counter-resentment, a political, historical and theological ignorance among supposed zealots, and maybe more than anything, a kind of arch-Protestantism whereby the people who might intone "wur Proddy and wur proud of it" in their West of Scotland lingo would be singularly incapable of articulating to you a single tenet of the Protestant faith. Ignorance, however, has never been a barrier to conviction.

Among these festering groups of supporters, Rangers and Celtic are currently playing out a microcosm of a regrettable drama that is dragging on in Scotland. Bigotry, some maintain, is a thing of the past, but extremist websites and other forums clearly indicate that a kind of prevalent, grass roots bigotry is still simmering away.

Rangers, moreover, appear to have a kind of white underclass attached to the club, which feels threatened and undermined by the modern, changing, more multi-ethnic Scotland breaking out around them. Rangers are about to be clobbered by Uefa this week for further, delinquent behaviour by a section of their supporters, and some believe there is a causal link between this and their wider grievances.

What is beyond dispute is that the poppy and the issue of Remembrance has become the enjoyable plaything of these rival groups of Old Firm fans. A much bigger, wider section of Rangers and Celtic supporters despair of it all - and it is important to remember that those fans are the majority - but from the die-hards it is all quite a stunning exhibition of ignorance and bitterness.

Comments

[kenlygreen]

Though I have to agree with the majority of your article, I feel I have to take you to task over its title. Where upon where was there a Rangers fans demonstration during the minutes silence for our fallen? Or are you suggesting that the group of Celtic supporters outside the Falkirk Stadium singing a pro IRA song (Clearly heard on live BBC Radio) were Rangers Fans in disguise.

[John Edwards]

Graham,

Regardless of religious denomination or football club of choice, the key word here is respect.

Respect should be shown to those who have fallen is conflicts for the freedom of our country. That is done with a minutes silence. End of.

It also strikes me that the fans of Rangers receive more negative press in this article than the fans of Celtic actually "boycotting" (a term used loosely) the silence, rather ironic as you use the term "pro-celtic" with relation to the media sarcastically.

Not that this is of any particular concern to me, but interesting to see the way your mind works.

[stubags]

A few thoughts on this article.

- "Some Celtic fans chose to ignore the moment by deliberately arriving late for kick-off."

Sort of. More accurate would be: "some Celtic fans chose to spoil the moment by deliberately arriving late and singing outside the stadium during the silence." I think it's very misleading to say they were "ignoring" the moment.

- "that is erroneously believed by irate Rangers fans to be down to the fact that Sky television, who were broadcasting the match, deliberately obliterated "a protest" by turning their microphones off."

Sky has admitted it cut its sound for the silence.
http://tinyurl.com/yehqj34
The chants were clearly heard on Radio Scotland's broadcast, and on different feeds of the match readily viewable on Youtube etc.

- "Enter, then, an equally obsessed group of Rangers supporters"

I think you'll find the anger at the disruption of the silence extends far beyond just Rangers fans, and in fact, far beyond just Scotland. Seems a little offensive to me to suggest Rangers fans (I'm not one) are the only ones in the country upset by the disrespect shown to British troops who have died serving this country.

So apart from getting these three minor points (or "facts", as they are often known) wrong, this a superb article.

[Bernie Cresswell]

Graham,
A good article that no doubt the "Blue noses" will have you on their lists of hate as a top candidate. You have previously highlighted the media bias in our wee "bigoted" small country and it comes as no surprise as I firmly believe the headlines were ready for print prior to Monday morning. Celtic have a tiny "minority" of their support that on occasion embarrass the club and that was evident on Sunday. A TINY minority chose to go against human decency and sang whilst they knew there was silent thousands inside the ground. A Falkirk fan did break the silence within the ground, but we wont read that in the red tops will we? The day that Celtic get fair and unbiased comment in the rags that pose as "newspapers" in scotland is a day long off. I for one have not purchased them as they are not even fit to wrap fish suppers anymore. The BBC in Scotland are so guilty of an unfair bias in favour of the establishment club that they are worthy of wee look from your good self and perhaps "outing" some of these hacks will clean up their act and lets get some "reporting" and perhaps even fair and unbiased comment that will challenge you as the only Scottish journo to do so. I won't hold my breath.

[Lubo]

Excellent article Mr Spiers.
There is no place in sport,or indeed life, for the kind of bile spouted by those on either side of this divide.
I am a rabid Celtic fan, season ticket holder & shareholder who has lived in England for over 40 years. While I like going to Glasgow and elsewhere for matches and I really enjoy a lot of the banter that you get, I despair when I read some fans' forums and comment columns such as this.
Each time a criticism is made of either team there are those who rush to the defence by complaining that "they are worse than us".
The west of Scotland in particular will never be the pleasant place to live that it should be as long as the silent majority remain silent.
The clubs are also complicit in ignoring the bad behaviour of fans, they know who has the tickets for away games, so why don't they do something?
The answer surely lies in both clubs moving from SPL, not necessarily to the same league,as this would, over time alter the mindset of the next generations.

[Chris Haldane]

Graham,

I do look forward to your posts and often you speak with a great deal of sense. However I dont think there is a journalist in the world who speaks about this issue more than you and to be honest im bored by it.

Maybe this is an ignorant view however I prefer to read about the actual football and not a few idiots who scream from the terraces. Lets try not discussing it for a while and see if that works because every other strategy seems to be failing anyway.

I myself support one half of the Old Firm (which side is irrelevant) and both sides are to blame for the continued conspiracy theories and disrespect that dominates our game. But unless there is action going to be taken then lets stop going on and on about it and instead work on a way to improve our football.

Graham, you use the term "conspiracy thoery" more than Mulder from the X Files!

Give me something good to read next week on my lunch break and not another article on "ignorance and bitterness"

Thanks

[John]

Hi Graham,

Can you shed any light on the increased "force feeding" of the poppy, remembrance, and general pro Brtish Army feeling upon Football fans up and down the country this past 2 years?. Where were all these poppys and minutes silence 5-10 years previously inside football ground?. Graham, you are intelligent enough to know that at the core of all this, is very little to do with WW1, and very much about turning current feelings towards the British Army into alot more positive percentages in the opinion polls.

Football fans are the largest weekly gathering of "groups" up and down the country, this is where the PR blast has been aimed.

[Popesicola X]

These people were exercising their rights to free speech. The very rights that people fought and died for. You cannot choose when that right is exercised just because you disagree with the sentiment expressed. The British Army has a long inglorious history - massacres of civilians, genocide, concentration camps to name a few. By all means protest - it is your right.

[Jim Kay]

Good piece, Graham.

A sense of proportion in this would be welcome from all concerned: especially from those in positions of authority and influence.

Motes and beams and all that ...

[kevin]

@kenlygreen

the song in question ,Aidan McAnespie,is not a pro ira song.its a song about an innocent man murdered in cold blood by British forces

[Duncan, Falkirk]

@ Kevin

Regardless of what the song was about, it has nothing to do with football and was sung to disrupt a minutes silence to remember our fallen soldiers.

Another point on this article. It should be centering around a group of Celtic fans disgracing themselves yet the picture at the top shows Rangers support. Why??

[Peter]

A very reasonable article.

As a Celtic fan and Scotsman with Irish heritage... indeed, someone with an interest in Irish politics, I can understand the distaste some supporters feel towards the Hague fund. The British forces have not covered themselves in glory in recent times and the money gathered from selling Poppies, be they humble or not, goes towards the upkeep of some men and women of questionable character just as it does those that can genuinely carry the mantel of hero (so often thrown around these days). The solution? Don't buy a poppy. It seems quite simple to me - it's your choice, use it.

My grandparents served in the Second World War and my greatgrandparents in the First and, to me, Remembrance Sunday should be observed with deference to those men and women that fought for something important to us all. I can only presume that some Celtic fans believe that they are striking a blow against the forces that served in NI and maybe they are (but it's an incredibly feeble and cheap one). What they are undeniably doing is showing a depressing lack of respect for a great many people who laid down their own lives for an ideal that most Celtic fans purport to hold dear.

I support each and every fans right to shun the poppy of the Earl Haig Fund (named, notably, after a man that sent so many to an unneccesary and ignominious death) but jeering a silence is another. There are better and less crass ways to get your point across.

[McGeadiegogo]

Congratulations Graham, if Celtic fans want to sing outside a ground where there is a minutes silence (and I was one) then why shouldn't we? It's a free country isn't it? People like me appreciate the support you give us and the backing we receive on a weekly basis although most of this country would have us in jail for even thinking about Ireland. Keep up the good work, I look forward to your next piece on Saturday which will no doubt take Rangers to task for their next transgression. I can't wait.

[Scott]

"the song in question ,Aidan McAnespie,is not a pro ira song.its a song about an innocent man murdered in cold blood by British forces"

Oh, that makes the singing of this song during the mintues silence perfectly acceptable then? Dear oh dear, what hope is there of ridding Scotland of this sectarian cancer? I give up.

[Des]

This poppy day debacle has only arisen in the past couple of years. I really do not understand why football supporters are asked to observe this silence in grounds nowadays. If anyone really wishes to commemorate the fallen (including Celtic or Rangers fans) surely the appropriate place to do so is at a war memorial or service of remembrance.

[Nick]

@ Popesicola X

I 2nd that.

[Damo]

I am a life-long Celtic supporter who has lived in England for some 25 years now, and I find myself pretty much agreeing with Stubags' post at 12:17. Also, I do think that this article seeks to divert criticism away from the Celtic fans who actively and deliberately disrupted (and disrespected) the minute's silence.

Whilst I accept that those individuals may have had their reasons to disagree with holding a minute's silence in memory of those who have given their lives in defence of our country, but they can simply choose not to participate, rather than deliberately trying to interfere with other people's choice to pay their respects.

Sadly this is just another excuse for the inconsiderate ignorami on both sides of Scotland's (and Ireland's) "cultural divide" to demonstrate how intolerant they are of other people's different opinions on life.

Perhaps they would prefer that we were all genetically cloned, pre-programmed automatons with exactly the same thoughts on everything? That way there would be no reason for the vitriolic bile that infests certain sections of Scottish and Irish society, as we would all be incapable of having our own personal views... or having feelings of hatred towards anyone with different views or beliefs.

Alternatively they could all just grow up and start acting like members of the most highly evolved species on the planet.

[Scott]

"I look forward to your next piece on Saturday which will no doubt take Rangers to task for their next transgression. I can't wait."

Well there we have it in black and white, "the money shot" so to speak. Celtic supporters positively relish ANY wrong doing by Rangers F.C and their support.

Are you perhaps a little lacking in intellect so as not to see what is wrong with what you have just said?

There is no way forward for Scottish football with such idiots maintaining these views. Do these people actually care about their own club or would they rather watch a Rangers match, volume to maximum, glass held to their ear, cupped to the screen praying that they can hear a transgression so they can hit the speed dial button to the Embassy?

RIP Scottish football and indeed Scottish society as a whole.

[Bernie Cresswell]

Oh and another thing......
When will we see the new super dooper microphones that BBC Scotland used at the Falkirk v Celtic game used at Ibrox or any ground that they visit or in fact any opposing fans when Aiden McGeady heads to the touchline for a corner kick or throw in. I was in the "Family section at St Mirren for the Scottish Cup tie in March of this year. A clear rendition of "why don't ye go home" was heard and we now know this is a crime to be caught singing this particular "ditty", however no arrests were made and it even brought a wee smile to Strathclyde's finest who were in attendance.
All football teams have supporters within their ranks that bring shame on our nation as a whole. To deny this would get you a job with BBC Scotland Sports team. Celtic do have a very small "Minority" that are part of that shame, however we have been very pro-active in trying to eradicate this and it has been the "Majority" that have been standing up to it through various forums over the past 10 years or more. At Celtic Park, you will not hear sectarian chanting or pro IRA songs and have not for many years. This is progress and many many Celtic fans are fed up with the "Old Firm" tag that teams us together with same fans who's "Majority" sang at Celtic park with great gusto that now aforementioned banned ditty.
Perspective is something you will not get frequently in Scotland. 20 to 30 singers outside the stadium, not exactly a "majority" there. It was as sure as night follows day that as soon as we witnessed the shameful scenes in Romania that the headlines would be to even up the score and get the "they are just as bad as each other" excuses that are so frequently used by the Scottish media. I do not agree with this at all and like the many thousands of Celtic supporters who cannot abide the "Old Firm" tag would wish it removed as we will flourish without it and we would flourish without them. Due to the ineptitude of one man and his "moonbeams" I would in the words of Kevin Keegan "Love it!" if they were to go the way of Third Lanark and Gretna. now that would be a story and might even get Sir " Minty" a wee headline that he doesn't want at long last. Mind you, probably have to buy an English paper to read about it.

[Nick]

Hmm almost a good point Scott, until your diatribe showed your own idiocy:

"Hit speed dial to the Embassy".

Good one.

[patsy]

@ Duncan
A Minute's silence for British soldiers has nothing to do with football. The football authorities in Scotland, by pushing the political poppy agenda, have legitimised these political songs. Which is a shame, really.

@ Scott
I think that comment may have been from a sarcastic rangers fan, no?

For me, this whole (non) story of some fans singing outside a football ground boils down to freedom of speech including the right to say unpopular things. That's what my grandad spent twenty two years in the RAF for, not for his service to be used to punish his people.

I hope that next year, Celtic have the courage to have a white poppy embroidered on the shirts, rather than a divisive symbol that will be used to punish the club whatever happens.

PS what is the relevance of the religious breakdown of Celtic's support? Irish nationalism was never an exclusively Catholic pursuit.

[Stuart]

And some wonder why so many English football fans don't want either side in the English leagues...

[Gerry]

Maybe we can find a way of commemorating Britain's war dead without requiring us all to endorse a symbol which has come, for many, to represent not only remembrance but also a whitewashing of the many transgressions of the armed forces down the years, in every corner of the globe. It is particularly unspleasant, for me, when this is glossed over with a fairly vulgar nationalistic veneer. Perhaps a symbol which permits of commemoration of all victims of war, including Britain's previous enemies, could be devised, one which also unequivocally displays our determination that the attrocities of War will never, ever be allowed to happen again. Maybe a white poppy? Oh, wait...

[Bernie Cresswell]

Stuart at 14.35

Aye cos English football fans have a history of hooliganism that is "celebrated" in films and in books that no Scottish club comes anywhere close to. England have their problems too and those jumping on that particular bandwagon best leave it as when wee disect that particular thread then we will see that England can boast of a rather fowl and thuggish element that persists to this day at football stadiums throughout "Engurland"

[Duncan, Falkirk]

@ Patsy

You are quite right, the minutes silence isn't about football, it's about our whole nation!! All across Britain at the weekend, there were silences - not just at football grounds. The same goes for tomorrow. Places of work will stop at 11am and stand in silence to remember our war dead. Can you imagine if you stood in your place of work tomorrow during this silence and started singing (particularly a chant designed to be anti the British Army) what the reaction would be.

Also, to all those playing the "freedon of speech" card, how would you react if a crowd of Bits went to Dublin while Ireland was remembering it's war dead and stand and sing Rule Brittania?? There is freedom of speech but there is also respect for the culture and tradition of the country you are in.

[Popesicola X]

For the poster who had to have a go at Haig he may have been a poor general but he campaigned vigorously for ex-servicemen after the war and was instrumental in improving their welfare.

[Gary Steel]

I find it amazing that no matter how abhorrent the actions of the Old Firm are there are many amongst them who are able to eloquently justify their actions.

[Lubo]

The Celtic fans who wish to exercise their right to protest at the minutes silence would do well to watch the clip of the British Legion spokesman on BBC web. He correctly points out that 7 Celtic players died in WW1 and the only professional footballer to win the VC was Willie Angus, a Celtic player.
Why can't we respect their memories
on this occasion ?
If people want to protest they should do it elsewhere and see what happens then.

[Delibelly]

Graham,

Having read your blog today I am astounded that you bring Rangers into the outrageous act perpetrated by so called Celtic supporters during the minutes silence on Sunday.

While Sky may have chosen to mute the sound for whatever reason, I was listening online and while I couldn't make out what was sung it is actually unimportant. They think it was the right thing to do as it may have offended some people, well Sky as far as I know do not mute any contentious songs by other fans which no doubt some MOPES would find offensive, why do they take one route for one and not the others, could it be there is a Celtic minded person controlling the output?

The fact is there was disrespectful singing from a crowd of supporters during the minutes silence. Do these monobrows not realise they get the freedom to sing because of the soldiers who made the ultimate sacrifice for all of us in the U.K., or would they prefer to be living somewhere else or under a Nazi regime. We in this country show our respect by a minutes silence, that's how we do it, so if that's too much to ask why don't they crawl back under the rock they came from?

Surely what is important in this context is it was so called Celtic supporters who showed disrespect so why bring Rangers into this issue?, is it once again your vilification campaign against the club?

Yes there was trouble by a very small minority in Bucharest last week but as you told me a few weeks ago you were going to Hamburg your information is anecdotal but you quite rightly did not bring Celtic into that debate as it had nothing to do with them and Sunday's shame has nothing to do with any other club.

Finally why at the lead to the blog is there a photo of Rangers fans?

[Michael]

It really is a shame that this whole Remembrance event is now used as a political football, and also the fact that freedom of speech & expression also appears to have been forgotten.

I have never known, in my 33 years, for there to be so much focus on poppies & Remembrance - especially at football grounds. Service personnel from the World Wars and subsequent battles do deserve to be remembered absolutely; however Celtic have a sizeable fan-base from Ireland; a country which has seen British Armed Forces based, and whilst my knowledge of all events isn't strong, I am willing to bet there are a few horror stories to be told during their presence on that island. Would we expect the Abu Ghraib prison XI select to hold a moment of silence for all those killed whilst on duty on their land? I very much doubt it.

That said, there should be a distinction made those who fought and died in the World Wars should never be forgotten - we probably can't even imagine what life must have been like whilst we skip through the channels on Sky and download songs for our iPod. You then enter into more recent events, i.e. Ireland / Northern Ireland - and whether we like it or not you can't expect everyone to have a moment of reflection foisted upon them; because the distinction isn’t made. It’s ‘all or nothing’ – remember all soldiers regardless. You shouldn’t have an opinion on that one.

Which takes me to the football itself - why has this entered into the fray so much recently? Is it due to the current war being fought in Afghanistan or is there something more sinister? If the British Army had never set foot in Ireland would there be such a clamour to pay respects? Call me a cynic, but I don't believe there would be. For this to be top of the agenda, every November for the last couple of years, tells me that this is being manipulated so one club's fans can use it against another’s. It would be interesting to know how many Rangers fans sat there on Sunday in the HOPE that something happened. I am sure there would have been a high degree of disappointment if the whole event passed without incident.

Personally I'd have preferred there to be a bit less noise from outside the ground - from what I've watched online there was pretty much silence from within the ground. You can't ask for more than that. Those who didn't want to participate did the right thing by staying outside the ground. The other issue is that a lot of the Celtic support, teenagers and young men, only see the British Army in one light - a group who occupied a land which means something to them (and no, they shouldn’t “go home”)

I do recall a handful of years ago hearing that a minute's silence would only be held in Scotland for "Football People", and whilst that might be a sad reflection on Scotland it should be adhered to. I find it sad that the deaths of countless men and women are being used as something to ‘point score’ over when it comes to football. Who really is desecrating the memory of these people? Those who stood outside on Sunday and made noise; or those who want to use this for nothing more to show “just how bad they are”.
I read a few fans’ messageboards to keep abreast of what’s going on. There was a story last week about a guy in England who urinated on a War memorial which was bedecked in poppies – an absolute outcry you’d expect from fans of Rangers who hold the poppy so dear? Actually, no – I couldn’t see one story about it on one of their busier messageboards. Maybe they missed it? Maybe I am wrong, or maybe that kind of story doesn’t fit in with the agenda?
20 minutes after the start of the Falkirk Celtic match on Sunday you couldn’t get access to this messageboard, and when you could there was a outcry. That appears, to me, to be the only reason for all this.

[Johnny B]

Rangers fans have had (quite rightly) plenty of bad press recently, not least from Graham Spiers and I usually find his articles enjoyable and accurate.

In this case however, I would ask and point out the following:

Why are Rangers fans mentioned in this article, nevermind pictured at the heading of the article? -It was Celtic fans (albeit a tiny minority) who chose to disrespect a minute's silence to a worthy cause.

Let's say that the present Pope has a heart attack and dies tonight-at the next set of SPL games, if a small group of Rangers fans outside the stadium choose to sing ant-Catholic songs over a minute's silence is that their right to the free speech that some Celtic fans have been talking about on this very thread? Would Graham Spiers next article lump in Celtic fans for taking the silence too seriously as he has done with Rangers fans and the poppy in this article? I think he would be more likely to write an article denoucing the Rangers fans in isolation rather than the 'Old Firm Bigots' that he has made reference to in this instance.

Also with regards to the reference to Sky T.V- It is a fact that they turned down their microphones- one only has to watch Arabic t.v footage to hear loud and clear the singing outside the ground, this is not Celtic fans ignoring the silence but disrespecting it Graham.

People who have been annoyed with the Celtic fans behaviour are not confined to Rangers fans-listen to the reaction of the Falkirk fans on Sunday after the silence-the booing is hardly inaudible.

Graham, it does appear that you are unwilling to ever criticise Celtic fans in isolation without including Rangers. You never have an issue with giving the Rangers fans (usually correctly) a verbal doing when they slip up...surely it has to work both ways??

[Ian Johnston]

Good old Mr Spiers. Reflecting on a day where Celtic fans and Celtic fans alone acted in a repugnant manner he attempts to drag Rangers fans into the mire also.

To do anything different just wouldn't sit right with Mr "Transparent" Spiers.

[Serenity]

It has been well reported that the minutes silence was disrupted by fans at several EPL matches this week-end. These fans were all inside the stadium.

[Michael]

@Johnny B - in reference to your "if the Pope died" part.

John Paul II died in April 2005. There was a minute's silence held at Hampden (and various other grounds) when Celtic played Hearts in the Scottish Cup. It lasted 30 seconds or thereabouts.

Rangers, whilst I didn't expect them to, were one of the few clubs not to hold any silence or any reflection at all on the passing. As far as I remember Rangers didn't have a game that weekend, however some of the clubs who were in the same boat held a reflection the following week / match. As I say Rangers didn't - so there's not much point in saying "what if" when we've already been there in recent years.

[Tim]

The minutes silence was only being held inside the stadium wasn't it?
They were outside the stadium weren't they?
Or was the minutes silence city wide?

[The Villan]

Please, please do not allow these two basket case football clubs anywhere near the Premier League. It will be a recipe for disaster.

Two rotten apples will spoil the rest...

[Johnny B]

@ Tim

That is possibly the worst excuse I have ever heard- Are you seriously trying to suggest that the Celtic fans (again I stress a tiny amount) were just passing Falkirk's stadium having a sing song and accidently interupted the silence inside the stadium? Laughable. Or are you suggesting its ok to sing and disrupt a silence as long as you are technically not inside the ground? Come on......

@ Michael

I was merely trying to think of an example of a silence that would be more warmly welcomed by Celtic fans rather than those of Rangers. In hindsight using the Pope as an example was ill-advised as at the end of the day he has nothing to do with the vast majority of Rangers fans. I was just trying to point out that it is silly to suggest that if Rangers fans did something similar during a silence then it would be passed off as 'freedom of speech.'

[David McCann]

This is what happens when sport and politics mix. The sporting event in question takes on more importance than it really has.

Many Celtic and Rangers supporters (but still a minority in both cases) see their support of the club akin to supporting a political party.

Surely if they feel this strongly they would be better off actually joining a political party instead? Then again, a party meeting wouldn't give them and their mates the chance to get drunk, sing bigoted songs, and show off like a load of angry teenagers.

[Bernie Cresswell]

The Villan 21.33

Glass Houses!

A bit rich, "Two rotten apples will spoil the rest..."

I take it the very recent West Ham v Millwall was a figment of my imagination.

Liverpool v Man Utd is a friendly game.
Spurs v Arsenal......... they hold hands!
Chelsea v......anyone really as they are thugs Utd.

English teams have ALWAYS had a rotten core element attached to their football teams.

Get a grip of yourself man and take a wee look in the mirror. You will eventually see that it would be the hooligan ENGLISH element that would be a cause for concern and not the FEW nasty singers!

[Peter Hughes]

If a reason is needed to ban BOTH these Glasgow clubs being accepted to play in England. THIS IS IT ! Sadly religious bigotry is rife with those who support BOTH clubs. One is equally as bad as the other and there is sufficent problems in English football without seeking more

[Ian Dickson]

I HATE all religion - the true curse of humanity. Never has so much bitterness, anger, hatred, cruelty and bloodshed been committed in the name of superstitious nonsense!

[B.Rodger]

Mr Speirs,

Your utter contempt for Rangers fans that are upset with Celtic fans disrespecting the remembrance is a disgrace. I remember during the week that Talksport Radio had a debate on this matter. During this debate a great many fans from all clubs phoned in to complain about the Celtic minded.
I would also like to add you may not agree with the humble poppy and remembrance but that humble poppy helps a great many serving and ex British soldiers that have fought and served during the years so that people like yourself can gob off. So before you tarnish there memory by saying YOU don't agree with it think about all those that actually served to give you the freedom of speech you don't deserve. I could have some respect for you if your arguements were two sided but they are not. Always big bad Rangers fault. Rangers get bad press and rightly deserved for the minority of morons that follow them but apologists like yourself for the morons that follow Celtic will always make me think you have a chip on your shoulder, Little Man.

[B.Rodger]

I would also like to add that Liverpool had a minutes silence against Birmingham and guess what no singing booing fans asking to wear a white poppy , no just a perfect silence from the fans even the ones that come over from Ireland to support Liverpool

[Jim Kay]

Much of the comment here, while intersting in demonstrating some deeply held "convictions", merely reinforces the impression that far too many people still consider Celtic and Rangers to be different sides of the same coin.

This is palpably not the case.

As Graham eloquently describes, each club has its zealots (the proportions of which attach to each club being a matter of separate debate), however, the issues for the 2 clubs' more radically-minded followers are quite different: for this group of Celtic fans they are largely political; while for Rangers they are largely quasi-religious.

The views of non-Old Firm following Scots are also highly interesting: though usually also failing to make the distinction.

As for the English-based fans' expressions of horror at the prospect of either club gracing the EPL. You've got to laugh!

[Dan]

We got over the reformation Scotland /Ireland have not. This is why we dont want them in the English Premier League

[Mike, Bristol]

The simple answer, as with other types of lack of respect (i.e. racism), is to make any offending clubs play behind closed doors if at home, or ban away fans if away.

Sure, it's not necessarily the club's fault, but then neither is a moron throwing a coin at a manager or a player.

Hit them where it hurts enough for them to clear it up themselves.

On a more general note, Scotland is such a pathetic backwater and nonentity in football terms (and, it must be said, others) that they can do whatever they want for all I care.

[Nick]

What has Liverpool got to do with this...?

Utterly moot point to produce.

[Johnny B]

@ Nick

Em, the point is that Liverpool have a large Irish fanbase yet still did not disrupt the silence-The Irish connection is the reason given why the silence was disrupted in the first place by the minority of Celtic fans.

[David McCann]

Why can't the Celtic fans that were singing outside admit that this had bugger all to do with freedom of speech or football. It was simply to prove a point, show off in front of their pals, and antagonise the Rangers fans....it's the same tired old story.

Would the Rangers fans respect a silence for the Pope? Probably, but there would no doubt be some who would feel the need to sing through it.

YOU ARE BOTH AS BAD AS EACH OTHER!

GROW UP!

Stop worrying about the supporters of a rival football club, and worry instead why you haven't reached maturity yet.

[Nick]

So what if Liverpool have a "large Irish fanbase"? 2 different clubs, in 2 different countries, with 2 completely different histories.

What is perceived in Scotland by either side of the OF is a world away from any team in the EPL (and that's not a good thing), so to compare them simply becuase Liverpool have a large Irish fanbase seems a little odd to me.

The social impact, not to mention the, at times, violent affiliations with being green or blue, Irish or British, has long been felt in the West of Scotland. I don't think it has been quite the same in footballing terms on Merseyside, regardless of how many Irish immigrants arrived there, or how large the Liverpool fanbase is.

I just think that the OF are a world away from anything else there is, and that isn't meant in a good way.
Both teams here antagonise the other, tit-for-tat, and that is why it is such a big problem; "It wuzni us, it wuz them" and "aye but they did this" etc et al.
The animosity between the fans of both teams is also as fierce as they come in club football, and to add in all the political, religious and varying other factors that inflame the situation means that, to me, you cannot compare the actions of either team to that of anyone else, even in the given situation of breaking the minutes silence.

[B Kennedy]

As a Celtic fan and Scotsman, albeit 25% Irish to boot, I've got seriously mixed feelings on this. I observed a minutes' silence (actually, several, the way it worked out over the weekend).

Consequently, I wish the fans outside the ground hadn't sung. I really do. But they did, and they had every right to do so, because as soon as we pick and choose when free speech can be exercised we extinguish that flame for which I would idealistically like to believe many of those soldiers fought (yes, that's shorthand to the point of naivety, but there you have it).

My initial feeling was that if you don't want to show respect, at least don't show disrespect, which seems a somewhat cheap and tawdry thing to do. But then, disrespect is in the eye of the beholder. To apply that argument consistently, then those whose beliefs are harmful or odious need only draw lines in the sand where they take offence at countervailing voices, and hence silence all debate, by merely personally taking offence at assumed disrespect.

Maybe on this occasion it would have suited me had the fans been silent but next time perhaps it would not...it might for instance deprive me of the right to comment on the lunacy of religion today or the actions of our government tomorrow. Perhaps I only earn the right to free speech by having to listen to other voices who disagree with me. It seems some people on this blog are struggling with that, but since people died for the concept, it's not much to ask and you should perhaps make more of an effort to earn your own right to free speech.

So I suppose I grudgingly disagree with what they said, but defend their right to say it, even if it causes me offence and harms my club, because the alternative is much, much worse.

[Ian]

On a more general note, Scotland is such a pathetic backwater and nonentity in football terms (and, it must be said, others) that they can do whatever they want for all I care.
-------------------------------------------------------
And to write that was your primary motivation for contributing to 'the debate', (that you don't care about), wasn't it? Because, like most of the Rangers fans expressing their false rage, you're not really all that bothered about the poppy, about respect, or our people serving in the military. It's all become a political football and it's all about one-upmanship. You did not seek to add anything worthy to the argument. All you wanted to do was to have a cheap did at Scottish football.

I am a Celtic supporter. I dearly wish that those who disrespected the minutes silence at Falkirk had not done so and that they had the maturity or at least the commonsense to keep stum for a minute. But let's not forget the irony that those who fell in WWII (and not any of our other conflicts) fought for this country's freedom. So like it or not, people in this country have the right to make a protest. People in this country are not obliged to respect a minutes silence. That's parliamentary democracies for you.

Let us also sweep away some myths. WWI was not fought for our (or Germany's) freedom. Neither was Korea, Aden, the Falklands, Iraq (I or II), or Afghanistan. Empire, power, and natural resources was what 'they fought for'. But the poppy has been 'adjusted' to cover every British loss in every British conflict - including Northern Ireland - and that is the root of the current problem.

A section of the Celtic and Rangers support travel from Northern Ireland and represent the Nationalist and Unionist communities in which they come from. I doubt that there are many British muslims who are enthusiastic about remembrance day given the massive loss of civilian life in Iraq and Afghanistan. So why then do so many people fail to empathise with the difficult situation in which Celtic supporters from Nationalist Northern Ireland find themselves in - showing respect to soldiers of a nation that still occupies six of their counties and cruelly put down a national rebellion and executed their own 'heroes' who orchestrated it?

I would much prefer that those who wish to make their protest do so away from the club. After all, remembrance day has nothing to do with Celtic. Then again, it has nothing to do with football. Should it not be left to those who take the time and trouble to visit the cenotaph rather than a football ground?

[Tom]

Graham thanks for an intelligent article on the poppy debate.

The vast majority of Rangers and Celtic fans I know want to enjoy the company of friends and a football match. Like me many are wearied by the political baggage attached to our clubs by those whose intolerance for the otherside is greater than their love of their club.

[Frank]

I am a Celtic supporter and, while I was not at the Falkirk game, if I had, I would not have participated in the minutes silence for British soldiers, soldiers who may well have shot unarmed Irish Celtic supporters in the back not to long ago. I can think of a few of them right now but this is not the place to get into that. Neither, however, would I have attempted to disrupt the minutes silence, though, given the circumstances, I thought that the song being sung by the young protesters was perfectly appropriate, The Ballad of Aidan McAnespie, a song about a young Irish catholic shot in the back by British soldiers while on his way to a gaelic football match in Aughnacloy, Co. Tyrone. No, had I attended that match I would have stood outside like the hundreds of other Celtic supporters in silent protest as this entire 'poppy' thing has become politicised.

For God's sake, there are Rangers supporters in my work who started wearing poppy's 2 full weeks before the official launch of 'Poppy 2009' or whatever its called.

My grandfather fought at 'The Somme', young, naive and uneducated as he was, running away and lying about his age - he lived but hundreds of his compatriots were slaughtered for nothing other than some perverse notion of imperialism. And don't even talk about Haig, responsible for the deaths of hundreds of thousands of young men for a couple of hundred yards of land?

I did not support the British imperial adventures in Ireland, nor in the Malvinas', nor in Iraq or Afghanistan. And I will never wear an imperialist 'poppy', that has been completely politicised and is being used merely as a stick to beat those of us of Irish descent who will not bend the knee to British imperialism.

Those who wish to wear a poppy or stand in remembrance of this perverted view of history, go ahead, but please allow the rest of us to make up our own mind.

In my place of employment today almost the entire workforce - with the exception of myself and 2 others engaged in work they could not get out of - left the building to take part in a remembrance service right outside the door of my work. I can think of a right few who attended this like sheep, not really wanting to go but scared that there non attendance would provoke raised eyebrows from their colleagues, or worse from the bosses.

Shame on them, and I dont think people fought against Hitler's Nazi's so people could be forced into commemorating things they do not agree with; 'poppy fascism'.

[james]

Posted by: Frank | 11 Nov 2009 16:07:03

You need to lighten up mate! Get a life!! A good 50% of British people have Irish ancestry some where down the line. (whether they know it or not! Mine came over in the 1850s) In the "olden days" Irish/British poor working class men were sent by the upper class to fight their battles. All we are doing is remembering their sacrifice. If you don't want to don't but you don't need show disrespect by disrupting the remembrance day or wearing a white poppy.

[Frank]

James,

You have clearly not read, or perhaps you have failed to grasp the point of my post.

I pointed out that I would not have disrupted the remembrance in any way - I simply would not have participated in it. Can you, with respect, not understand the difference?

As for young British/Irish working class people being sent to do the dirty work of the upper class, why do you think I am so opposed to the entire poppy day charade, for that, in my view, is what it is, a charade, to encourage young working class youth to enlist to be used as cannon fodder in Iraq and Alghanistan.

This last number of years has witnessed a massive push by British civil and military authorities to re-invent 'Britishness', and with a clearly stated political purpose of boosting recruitment and patriotism for deeply unpopular wars.

Do you really think Britain, America and the hilariously named 'coalition' forces are in other peoples countries for anything other than selfish and strategic reasons? Britain is in these countries, wrapped in the Butchers Apron, for British imperial interests. It turns my stomach to hear British war mongering politicians and others ranting on and lying about how those soldiers who are being brought home in body bags from Alfghanistan etc were over there fighting for peace, absolute propoganda and lies of the highest order.

The soldiers, their families and the wider public are being subjected to a political and military con trick by murdering war criminals.

The responsibility for British or American or 'coalition' deaths lie with the respective governments who sent them to Ireland, to The Malvinas, to Iraq and to Alfghanistan.

Open your eyes and try to prevent more young guys (and women), dying for nothing. By wearing a poppy you legitimise British imperialism - and I wont, not ever.

[Douglas]

@Frank,
At this time of the year, many people are discussing heroic acts of self-sacrifice. I would like to take this opportunity to commend you for your own sacrifice in choosing to live in a country whose history must weigh deeply on your conscience. I can only think that you are doing this in the hope of spreading your enlightened pacifism among the ignorant populace. You really are a beacon of hope to us all.

[Kris]

I think people should learn what freedom of speech actually means.

It's not the right to say whatever you want without reprocussions.

[Chris]

I'm just so glad the English Premier League have said they won't let these Scottich clubs into our league.
We have enough of our own idiots in this country, without importing all that rubbish they still seem to be arguing about in Scotland.

[Tony Bellini]

"Spare us the phoney poppy apoplexy"

'The vitriolic campaign to bully all Premier League clubs into wearing a poppy on their shirts shames the memory of the fallen'

Not my words but those found on the sports pages of an English newspaper referring to English football teams being coerced into wearing poppies.

You see, this issue is much bigger than whether those amongst the Celtic support choose to acknowledge the minutes silence or not.

It is about choice. Blackburn, Bolton, Liverpool, Manchester United and Stoke chose not to have the poppy on their shirts.

For whatever reason a section of the Celtic support chose to remain outside the ground. That was an option that was open to them and they took it. Why the fuss ?

My take on this is that in trying to deflect from the repeatedly shocking behaviour of their own support, all the Rangers fans are doing is illustrating that when there is a bigger picture/issue to be addressed you will find the Celtic support asking the questions and where there is sectarianism, bigotry, rioting etc you will find Chelsea Casuals, Franco's Fascists, Romanian Stewards, Heavy-Handed Police, Big-Screen Technicians, Spanish Spaniards etc etc