Did McCain rough up a Sandinista?

John McCain has rejected claims by a fellow Republican senator that during a 1987 meeting with Nicaragua's then-Sandinista government, he roughed up an associate of President Daniel Ortega.

Thad Cochran of Mississippi claimed in an interview with the Sun Herald that he saw McCain grab the man by his short collar and lift him up "as if he was about to throw him out of his chair". The senator, a McCain supporter renowned for his mild manner and measured speech, said he was disturbed by the incident, which took place during a diplomatic mission in a room full of armed men.

"McCain was down at the end of the table and we were talking to the head of the guerilla group here at this end of the table and I don't know what attracted my attention," Cochran said. "But I saw some kind of quick movement at the bottom of the table and I looked down there and John had reached over and grabbed this guy by the shirt collar and had snatched him up like he was throwing him up out of the chair to tell him what he thought about him or whatever.

"I don't know what he was telling him but I thought, good grief, everybody around here has got guns and we were there on a diplomatic mission. I don't know what had happened to provoke John but he obviously got mad at the guy and he just reached over there and snatched him."

No punches were thrown and the situation was defused, Cochran said, though the target of McCain's ire appeared "ruffled" for some time after.

The senator went on to add, however, that McCain was now "level-headed" and in his opinion was the best man for the job.

McCain, who is known for his touchpaper temper, has flatly denied any truth in Cochran's recollection. "It's simply not true," he told reporters in Cartagena, Colombia, where he is currently on a visit. He acknowledged that he "did not admire the Sandinistas", but went on to say: "There was never anything of that nature and it just didn’t happen."

So what really occurred? Lorne Craner a former foreign policy aide to the Republican nominee who attended the Nicaragua trip, said he had no recollection of the incident described by Cochran.

"Honestly, if my boss had grabbed a foreign government official like that and lifted him up I would certainly remember that," said Craner, who is president of the International Republican Institute, which McCain chairs.

It seems unlikely, however, that the Mississippi senator would fabricate such an incident. McCain has in the past crossed swords with Cochran, a senior member of the Senate Appropriations Committee, over pet projects tagged onto spending bills by committee members. But would he go so far on the basis of a grudge?

Cochran shocked Americans earlier in the year with an uncharacteristic outburst on the subject of McCain's temper, which he suggested would be an impediment to his presidency. "The thought of his being president sends a cold chill down my spine," Cochran told the Boston Globe in January. "He is erratic. He is hotheaded. He loses his temper and he worries me."

Since then, however, McCain has made an effort to smooth things over with Cochran, who has even joined the Republican contender on the campaign trail.

Asked why Cochran raised the Nicaragua incident now, the senator's spokeswoman, Margaret McPhillips, said: "I think Sen. Cochran went in to as much detail Monday as is necessary to make the point that, though Sen. McCain has had problems with his temper, he has overcome them."

"Decades have passed since then and he wanted to make the point that over the years he has seen Sen. McCain mature into an individual who is not only spirited and tenacious but also thoughtful and levelheaded," McPhillips added. "He believes Sen. McCain has developed into the best possible candidate for president."

However McCain's legendary temper has surfaced much more recently. In 1995 he had a scuffle with Senator Strom Thurmond, a Republican from South Carolina, on the Senate floor, while just last year, he screamed "F*** you! at John Cornyn, a Republican senator from Texas, during a heated debate over immigration.

During his first presidential run in 2000, when questions were raised over his inability to win the support of his colleagues, one GOP senator described an incident the previous year in which McCain had repeatedly called fellow Republican Pete Domenici an "a**hole" as the New Mexico senator addressed the Budget Committee in his role as chairman. The senator who witnessed the incident told Newsweek he had previously considered supporting McCain for president, but then changed his mind.

"I decided," the senator said, "I didn’t want this guy anywhere near a trigger."

Comments

[JOHN CHUCKMAN, TORONTO]

Well, the man who reports this ugly incident is an American senator, and he is a Republican.

Even if he doesn't like McCain, it is hard to see any motive for making this up.

Besides, the incident is in keeping with McCain's well-known temper, said by those who've seen it in full fury to be frightening.

McCain as a young man bucked authorities and acted the typical troubled brat, fond of ugly tricks, in school. His academic record is mediocre.

He is the son and grandson of admirals and clearly did not have the talents needed to rise in the Navy. He only got into pilot's training by his father's pulling strings.

I suspect McCain suffers from the syndrome common to so many sons of famous fathers, especially ones who just don't have big talent.

It's actually another way in which he resembles Bush, because Bush and his father just about came to blows on more than one occasion.

As retired General Clark accurately said, getting shot down in a fighter doesn't qualify you to be president.

[jorge wheelock]

This was well deserved I'm sure. I'm a Nicaraguan citizen living in Nicaragua, and assuring you, that at times, this is the only way to deal with these Sandinistas.

[Paul]

As a Nicaraguan I would like to assure your readers that if indeed this incident did occur, McCain is better for it. Roughing up Sandinista's should be seen in a positive light when compared to financing Sandinista's as a few Obama cronies have done in the past. Namely the great Reverend Wright.

[Tim Jackson]

I'm surprised that you have not mentioned the most famous allegation about McCain losing his temper; namely that he called his wife a c*** in front of a number of journalists in the early 90's.

[Bob Evans]

And if McCain did such things, do you not think that Yanks would prefer a president who possesses testiculī to testosterone-free president incapable of producing the testosterone to defend them?

[Mark]

I like the idea of McCain as an a$$ kicker. LIke Reagan, he wont be bullied or intimidated but will call the bluff and up the anty when punk leaders want to play poker.

Uncle John wants YOU!

[ELDERDON]

I'd like this type of response from McCain when Obama sits across from him in a debate. Then I'd vote for the old bastard!

[Richard Wilkinson]

Dr. Strangelove can not wait to push the red button and start his 100 year war.

[Don Meaker]

Simple physics indicates that the story is false. Try picking up a large child by the collar.

Now throw in that McCain was badly injured during his stay in Vietnam. He barely has enough movement left to dress himself, and someone would have him performing Schwarznegger-esque feats of strength.

Odd thing about politicans. They can make a lot of money selling out their few votes to the opposition. We see it happen every year in California, where one or two Republicans are picked off (by significant amounts of bribery) to vote with the Democrat majority on what ever tax bill or infringement of our rights comes down the pike. As a sellout minority you can do right well, better than you can as a member of the Majority which has to, like, govern responsibly.

[Don Meaker]

The US has been in Cuba since 1898. In Germany since 1944, in Japan since 1945, in Korea since 1949.

Why? Because we stay, and wars don't start. We leave (as we left Europe in 1919) and wars start again. When we went back into Europe we lost 4000 men, in Sicily alone. More at Salerno. More at Anzio and Monte Cassino. More again as we fought up the length of Italy. More in Normandy. More across France. More in Southern France. More in Belgium. More in Germany.

We lost about 100,000 men in WWI, and 300,000 dead in WWII. We lost much less that that during the long stay as part of NATO. That is why staying makes sense. Not to fight a 100 year war, but to prevent one.

Doesn't high school teach anything anymore?

[Uncle Ralph]

Channeling C.S. Lewis, "We make men without chests and expect of them virtue and enterprise. We laugh at honor and are shocked to find traitors in our midst. We castrate and bid the geldings be fruitful." -- On the other hand, we make men like John McCain.

Take your pick.

###

[Dave H]

Good for John McCain. The Sandanista's were and are a bloody terrible bunch of thugs. I wish he would have actually flung the pig again the wall.

[anomaka(2008: year of the underdogs)]

God help us if this guy gets elected. This is the kind of attitude that got us in Irak. Loser!

[Gyrd]

A 'scuffle' with Thurmond? How could anyone get angry at a senile guy in his mid-to-late 90s, steered by his aides? I'd like to hear more about that supposed incident.
How does McCain pick anyone up by the lapels when he can't lift his own arms above shoulder level, due to his war wounds?
Cochran is a Mississippi politician, and is used to a certain audience. He probably thought he was doing McCain a favor by saying that he will physically beat up all of America's enemies, one-by-one.

[GFR]

Keep up the good work, London Times. You've just given a bunch of Americans another good reason to vote for John McCain.

[Pedro Arauz]

Thank God there are plenty of people like Mr.McCain who don't fall for the leftist crap!
The USA will have to realize the power to anhilate such evil and use the weapons it has before otherwise. In South America we have to eliminate from Chavez to Ortega, fast!

[chris ford]

Torontoan John Chuckman is clearly in no contact or understanding of what is left of Canada's military if he writes of McCain:

"He is the son and grandson of admirals and clearly did not have the talents needed to rise in the Navy. He only got into pilot's training by his father's pulling strings."

1. Any Naval Academy graduate is eligible to put in for pilot's training.
2. He did succeed in becoming a highly rated carrier jet combat pilot for 7 years - which is a meritocracy because like Royal Navy sub officers, the environment is too dangerous, too many lives rest on such officer's performance to allow a non-hacker with extraneous political or family "pull" to persist. Dangerous to the pilot and others not just the combat air missions, but everyday sorties and carrier takeoffs landing on "the most dangerous 2 acres anywhere".
3. McCain was rated as a naturally gifted pilot in his fitness reports, being a natural flyer&fighter, aggressive, cool under pressure.
4. He went on after POW captivity to regain his wings when doctors said it was impossible, by undergoing a year of excruciating pain breaking up 6-year old scar tissue and lenthening shortened muscles and ligaments to regain flexibility from what his therapist said was the "worst knee injury and scar tissue problem I ever saw, the worst agony I ever saw a patient put up with in therapy to reach their goal". All voluntary, all which McCain was told was not necessary for his opportunities to work for higher promotion, but a point of honor with him because he told others he would do whatever it took to bend it enough to fit in a cockpit, and regain what the Communists took away from him .
5. He showed executive ability as commanding officer of the Navy's largest fighter wing, gaining high marks for leadership and receiving the Navy's 1st peacetime Presidential Meritorious Unit Commendation. In his last position as Navy Liason to the Senate, he was acclaimed by Senators from both Parties for superb work and superb support of them.
6. How far McCain would have gone in the Navy if he had not lost the entire middle of his career - 5 1/2 years in brutal captivity, 2 years to heal his POW mental and physical wounds - is unknown. But in any case he left a highly decorated Captain of the US Navy, widely admired by his peers and the public - evn those that disagree with his politics or acknowledge he had temperment and comportment issues on being freed from Vietnam that took a few years to shake free of.

Chuckman is correct that simply being shot down (or getting wounded or getting medals for heroism) doesn't qualify one for President. I personally don't want McCain in because of his politics and weak economic credentials. But there is no denying that McCains 27-year service to the nation was exceptional, and is an ongoing source of inspiration to civilians and military alike on the nature of honor, duty, sacrifice.

Not just in the USA. And outside the POW story, every modern Navy and many air force and Army, plus professional firefighters study tapes of the Forrestal fire, which killed 134 and wounded 161 in a conflagration. Part of the training notes a pilot whose jet is engulfed in a sea of flames from burning jet fuel, who climbs out and calmly jumps into the lake of burning fuel, ducking and rolling and emerging burning and put out with an extinguisher. Saving his life by cool action now taught to others. Some of the training adds that the burned pilot then ran Back Into The Flames to rescue a fellow pilot, reached him, and was dragging him out when the 1st 500lb bomb exploded, killing most of the damage control party and throwing him and his charge 50 feet and leaving him with shrapnel in his legs and chest. A month later, he had most of the shrapnel out, burns healed, and volunteered for combat duty on another aircraft carrier while the Forrestal was overhauled. On his 7th flight, he was shot down.
John McCain.

[haralambos]

What about Chuck Norris for Mc cain's VP?

[Cic]

John McCain may, or may not have have made it into flight school because his father was an Admiral; I can however assure you that his becoming a pilot who successfully took off and landed from a moving aircraft carrier in the middle of the Pacific Ocean had nothing to do with his father pulling strings. You are either successful at taking off and landing, or you are dead.

[KmiloY]

As a nicaraguan citizen i can say,"great if he did it" That's the kind of guts that foreign policy needs

[Stephen]

Better question: Would Obama even know what a Sandanista is?

[Infidel]

I can only hope he bloodied the bastards nose. The Sandinistas deserve only the noose.

[Bonnie]

I also would like this type of response from McCain when Obama sits across from him in a debate. Then, a few people could vote for the old guy and most could see the light and vote for Obama, the man the generals call No Drama Obama and No Shock Barack. We need a steady hand, brilliant mind and a compassionate soul in the White House in this very dangerous world, not a testosterone-hyped old man with untreated PTSD. Think about it. Obama 08 Oh yeah!

[Bonnie]

I see no reason for Cochran to make up this incident and it is in line with much that is documented about McCain's volatile temper. In any case, I imagine this meeting with the Sandinistas could be verified. There were thousands of people in the U.S. that worked with the Sandinista government during the 80s, helping build schools, digging wells, teaching, working with churches. The connections with Nicaragua and its people run deep in the United States faith community. Once it's verified, not only will people know about one more serious hot-headed incident with McCain, but they'll know he lies (saying this didn't happen). Lying about this is a doubly-serious character flaw. Should such a person have his finger on the button? No. Simply no.

[Thabo in London]

As a member of a society that has repeatedly voted in a party that openly admires communist regimes, let me say how shocked I am at McCain's behaviour!

How dare a man, who was subjected to years of brainwashing and torture by Asian communists, lay his hands on a member of a similarly brutal Latin American communist regime.

He is clearly guilty of a hate crime and is probably racist!

[Tony G]

The USA needs a President who gets tough for his country, unlike Obama who will dissemble just like Carter.

[gbj11]

Every time I read an article about McCain's 'temper', it makes me even more inclined to vote for him.

This is the kind of guy we need in the White House.

[courtneyme109]

Roughing up an enemy of fun, freedom and free choice? SWEEEEEEEEEEET!

[Ganpat Ram]

The writer is going out of her way to make McCain sound like a brilliant person to have as President.

How much better to have a tough guy like this in office than a devious PC-saturated type like Obama.

What worries me is not the old blood-and-guts McCain Americans love but the recent remade bloodless McCain who swears he is going to run a "respectful" campaign. A sure loser.

McCain should go back to being McCain, and hit Obama ruthlessly on his Black Power background.

[MikeInMaine]

Funny how you idiots who are obviously liberal, just slander McCain as though you know this story is true. I'm a conservative who does not like McCain. He's not my fave candidate- not close. Obama is a nothing though. A snake-oil salesman. If this story is true I am much happier to vote for McCain. Who wouldn't be- except a partisan hack?!

[M]

If Mccain gets in the whole world is screwed. He'll bundle into Iran, get pasted by them and probably push the big red button in a fit of temper.

[W.W. Terry]

I have never been a McCain admirer but if he ruffed up one of those murderous Sandinistas, boy oh boy he has got my vote. I was in Nicaraga immediately after the Sandinistas lost the presdential election and from what I saw -what a bunch of incompetent greedy @##$#$$. Go get them John.

[ed]

"ugly incident" my rear end. A reason to vote for the old man. I'd rather have a man like McCain than a boy like Obama anyday.

[Macadamia Cake]

I hope there are no fisticuffs with Obama. McCain could have a hot temper, but he is an old man!

[Scott]

The Senate is all about wheeling and dealing and he's bound to have made a few enemies over his many years there. As for roughing up a Sandinista, if that even happened, who gives a sh*t. That scum deserved a lot worse. Oh, and "guerrilla" is the correct spelling.

[Ted Demlow]

After the gang of four (nixon, reagan, papa and baby bush) have softened up the USA to the weakened extend it now is, mcCain should be able to finish it off in less than four years.

That is good. The USA needs to downsize into small Republics that more represent the different ideologies of it's people. There is nothing "united" about the United States. The sooner we get this breakup over with, the sooner we'll stop canceling out each other's search for a better future. McCain can deliver this.

[JOHN CHUCKMAN, TORONTO]

"Doesn't high school teach anything anymore?"

Indeed, Don Meaker, your own post is evidence that perhaps it never did, at least in America.

Your post is ridiculous fantasy.

Just one of dozens of facts that may be cited: America's losses in WWII were roughly 1/2 of 1% of the 50-60,000,000 who died.

In Europe, Russia won the war with the loss of 27,000,000.

They fought the greatest battle in all of human history, Stalingrad. They fought the greatest tank battle ever, Kursk, and suffered such terrible events as the Siege of Leningrad.

Despite their losses, they rolled the Germans back with no American assistance other than some materials and the effects of bombing on Germany (often rated as having had a small effect on armaments output under Albert Speer, although of course killing many innocent civilians).

The U.S. assisted with airpower and a last minute invasion to stop the Russians from taking all of occupied Europe.

Please, it looks foolish to claim credit for what you did not do.

Of course, in Japan, you gained "victory" with two atomic bombs on strictly civilian targets, a disgraceful and cowardly act which will never be forgotten. The Japanese had long before made serious overtures for surrender, only asking to keep their emperor.

Your country ignored them, preferring to totally humiliate the Japanese, securing the dominance of the Pacific which was part of the reason for the war in the first place when the U.S. attacked Japan economically in the 1930s.

Since WWII, the U.S. has started dozens of small and large colonial wars, most to no purpose. You left 3,000,000 Vietnamese dead in their own country because you did not agree with their economic system. You left a hellish legacy of Agent Orange and landmines to continue killing.

That's a mighty strange idea of peace. Rather like your slaughter at Fallujah.

[JOHN CHUCKMAN, TORONTO]

McCain is simply unfit for high office.

We have the record here of his violent temper. There isn't any reason to doubt any of it.

Then there is the record of his corrupt associations with the Keating Five during the savings-and-loan scandels in the US.

We have the fact that after returing from Vietnam to the wife who waited for him, he abandoned her owing to her disfigurement in a car accident and owing to his then girlfriend Cindy.

Then we have the scandel of his new wife Cindy being caught stealing large amounts of drugs from the charity she volunteered for. She was a drug addict, but I guess she wouldn't spend any of her large personal fortune on her addiction, so she stole.

With McCain's help, she got off paying no price at all. If you or I did something like that, we'd be doing ten years hard time, just like all the poor blacks crowding American prisons as a result of harsh drug laws and harsh enforcement, for them.

McCain was shot down while bombing civilians around Hanoi. Technically he was not a POW, but Americans always beg important questions calling him that.

The men America keeps penned like animals in Guantanamo or the thousands murdered in Afghanistan, where at least 3,000 prisoners were "disappeared," did not bomb civilians and they certainly were not treated as POWs, a technical term under international conventions the US has ignored.

There is a streak of bravado combined with nasty school-boy ethics in McCain. It has played an important role in his life from his days as a serious troublemaker for teachers in high school.

He most certainly is not what America or the world needs now. They've just had 8 years of a class clown with little learning and less ethics.

But there's no need to be concerned, the polls are beginning to signal strongly that he's going to lose, big time.

And that's long before he's debated with the most formidable speaker America has produced in decades.

[Dallas MacDonald]

I think that it is about time that we had a President that won't take crap from anyone.

So, you think that Obama is a more formidable candidate? A JUNIOR senator, who has spent 2 of his 3 years in the US Senate running for President? Michael More is more of an impressive mouth-piece that Barack Obama, and he probably lies less (though not much). But I don't think ANYONE, even Canadians, would support HIM for President... Why?

Because being able to speak well and look good doesn't qualify you as President.

[Paul]

If he is so famous (infamous) for his temper, how come this is the first year I've ever heard it mentioned?

[jens]

I certainly hope he roughed up a Sandinista.

P.S. Also wanted to thank our friends in England for supporting us and others in the mid east.

jensad

[blake foote]

This is the man we need to run America. Oh God, if only he were younger and wore a bandana with rippling muscles,I would vote for him.

[pierce in south carolina]

The comments from John from Toronto have made my blood boil. As a canadian who lives in the USA with my american wife, I find these comments not only offensive but a classic response from a marxist from what is now known as the peoples republic of canada. I have a political science degree from a fine school in western canada and can remember the antiamerican new age babble that is taught to canadian youth. There is very little said about the great leadership and selfless sacrifice made by the many brave americans over the last 100 years all over the world. No matter who gets elected this fall. The world can and will expect the good ole USA will be there in times of crisis and will not hestate to spend her treasure and send her finest young people to anywhere in the world so others can enjoy the fruits of freedom.I am proud to live in the USA under any president who is elected and I am sure others on this board feel the same as I do.
God bless the USA and her glorious people.
Pierce
Whisler,Canada
Spartanburg,USA

[Katherine, London]

Don Meaker - the US only entered the First World War because of German attacks on US citizens and supplies, not because they were riding to Europe's rescue, the millions dying barely raised an eyebrow in the US until it was some of your own. And the 2nd world war had more to do with Hitler than the fact that you didn't continue to occupy the continent, which Europe's sovereign nations would never have allowed anyway.

Those who attack John Chuckman might wa nt to consider that the points he makes are clear to anyone outside the US, where pro-US propagandistic teaching and lack of foreign travel/news breeds a rather skewed vision of the world. And to those who think McCain punching as Sandinista a good thing, do you also think Republican support of the brutally murderous Contras was a good thing? The group who tortured, mutilated, raped and killed tens of thousands of civilians and were eventually declared a terrorist organisation by your own State Department? Not forgetting that the Sandinista Revolution was in the first place a reaction to a brutal and oppressive US supported dictatorship (as also happened in Cuba, Iran, Venezuela, Vietnam - do you ever learn?) Conservative wackos might think that McCain was right to simply punch that "Commie bastard", thank God there are some educated and insightful people in the US who will hopefully prevent you continuing on your cycle of unthinking aggression which is never in the name of morality, only expediency. Obama is the favourite of the world because older, wiser countries have learnt that imperialism always fails in the end.

[JOHN CHUCKMAN, TORONTO]

Pierce,

I don't know where you went to school, but it probably should have its teaching credentials revoked.

Calling me Marxist is about as ignorant as it comes. I'm a former corporate economist, trained in classical economics. I'm just as likely to vote for a thoughtful Conservative as a thoughtful Liberal or a thoughtful anyone else.

But when it comes to the stupid brutality of war and the repression of human rights and deliberate deception in politics, you'll find me fighting with anyone who has no tolerance for these things.

These are the things that destroy human progress. And you appear a defender of them.

I can't imagine the thinking of a person who sends off uninformed comments and holds back his name.

Seems rather cowardly to me.

[Austin]

This is a BS story that "Tatteling Thad" made up for reasons one can only imagine. Thanks to the North Vietnamese McCain can't even lift his own arms higher than his shoulders, let alone pick some Sardinista SOB up off the ground. Ortega and his Commie scum are back in power along with Chavez and Morales, and it's going to take a man like John McCain to stand up to them toe to toe. Not get baited into unilateral sit downs with these despots like Obama would have us do.

[Common Sense]

Great, a hothead with his finger taped to the nuclear trigger.
You losers that want war will sacrifice much more than Americas sons and daughters in the coming world war.
McInsane and Omama both suck. Ron Paul was the last hope for America

[pierce]

I find it interesting that John from Toronto has`so many defenders on this board. Heres something for you to consider. I have started and run several companies in Canada,the USA and Mexico which employed many people from many varied backgrounds.Most if not all employees respected the USA despite the best efforts of people like John from Toronto who is a pro at antiamerican blogging(based on reading the web page he has linked to his comments.)
There is a pro europe(eastern)movement based in Canada that that this John from Canada seems to subscribe to that has amongst is members those who do nothing to contribute to any worthwhile endeaver such as working(artists) or possibly starting any effort which might maybe provide jobs to more of their kind. These pro protesters do nothing to help with problems but sit in their armchairs to quarterback world history and events without adding anything of substance to help with these problems. John from Canada will soon be drowned out in his blogs and crying by the millions of radical muslims that have found sanctuary in the utopia which is now Canada and western europe. The melting pot of Canada and western europe is possible because of the permissive policies pushed by John of Toronto and his radical kind. The USA will once again have to rescue europe and Canada from the evil that is growing in these areas and will do it not for the american people but to save the Canadians and the europeans from themselves.Wake up people and help yourselves.When the french can not arrest muslims who are rioting and burning cars as to not offend these same muslims and Canada will not publish the ethnic background of arrested terrorists so not to offend the same crazies there is no hope other than to send in the ADULTS of the world(read USA) to clean up the mess and set rules so things get back to normal. History repeats so the future is easier to predict .
Pierce in Canada and the USA

[Katherine, London]

Do any of you actually know what Marxism and socialism are? Americans seem to throw these terms around sometimes like unthinking paranoics simply parroting the scaremongering of the worst in their political scene.

Just to help out, from Merriam-Webster:

Socialism:

1: any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods
2 a: a system of society or group living in which there is no private property b: a system or condition of society in which the means of production are owned and controlled by the state

None of that describes Obama. Nor does it describe the UK, as a right-wing American with too much testosterone and a complex about those "commie bastards" told me recently, based on the fact that we have the NHS.

Do some reading people, for goodness sake. You just sound so ignorant.

[Katherine, London]

Pierce,

Criticising the policies of the US or any other government does not mean you hate/disrespect the country or its people. The permissive policies you are talking about constitute tolerance, which is something you could clearly do with learning. And what on earth are you talking about about France not being able to arrest Muslims rioting and burning cars so as not to offend them? This is sheer rubbish, riots in France have been by youths from the banlieues, of all ethnicities but largely black, not Muslim, and people have been arrested, where do you get your news from, Michelle Malkin?

And yes, you are right, history is repeating itself, and the brutal and greedy dictators that the US propped up in Iraq, Iran, Venezuela, Cuba, Vietnam (I could go on) are all coming back to bite you in one way or other, either turning on you directly like Saddam Hussein (Donald Rumsfeld's ex best mate) or because of popular rebellion against horrendous US backed regimes (Cuba, Venezuela, Vietnam, oh yes Nicaragua there's another one, Iran, gosh that really is a mess there.)

Saudi Arabia will be next - in fact, it's already happening. Where do you think al-Qaeda comes from?

Advocating a different way doesn't mean we hate America, or the UK. Constructive criticism is not a bad thing.

[JOHN CHUCKMAN, TORONTO]

Pierce,

You've removed your mask completely. You're simply a racist, besides being quite ignorant.

"John from Canada will soon be drowned out in his blogs and crying by the millions of radical muslims that have found sanctuary in the utopia which is now Canada and western europe. The melting pot of Canada and western europe is possible because of the permissive policies pushed by John of Toronto..."

Most of us are extremely proud of Canada's cosmopolitan nature. Its succcess in this regard is an example to the world, a world, I might add, where migration is necessarily a bigger part of the future for all countries.

Globalization and global warming mean tremendous levels of migration in future. People like Pierce who cannot accept such change and new realities have a very unhappy future to look to.

I know of no dangerous Arab people in Canada. This is an ignorant mimicking of things said in the past by American racists like Patrick Buchanon. In fact, in the little shops they run and in my exposure with academics, I find them among the sweetest and most empathetic people I've met.

[Uncle Ralph]

Katherine of London (10 July 2008 at 02:22 AM) wrote:

"Do any of you actually know what Marxism and socialism are? Americans seem to throw these terms around..."

It's all about sovereignty, ma'am.

The assumption in old Europe was that God granted sovereignty as the divine right of kings (cf. Filmer: Patriarcha, 1680). The assumption among statists is that sovereignty inheres in the state (cf. Hobbes and Hegel). The axiom of the Declaration of Independence is that sovereignty is an endowment to the individual from his Creator. It is then Men who institute government for the purpose of securing each man's rightful ownership of his own Life, Liberty, and Pursuit of Happiness. The just powers of such government derive from from the consent of the governed; and if indeed any form of government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the right and the duty of the people to alter or abolish it and institute new "improved" government (cf. Locke and Jefferson).

Government is the creature and servant -- not the master -- of Man under God. As George Washington said, "Government is not reason, nor eloquence. It is force. And like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearsome master." And as Condoleezza Rice has said, "Human dignity is not a government's grant to its citizens nor mankind's gift to one another; it is God's endowment to all humanity."

Marxism, socialism, collectivism, communism, statism, fascism, elitism, tribalism, monarchism, and others are all repugnant as each usurps by force of government the inalienable rights of the individual. No end justifies such means.

What of compassion, social justice, and the like? These are matters of conscience and are not legitimately ordained by government. Instead think "church" -- or other voluntary associations (cf. de Tocqueville).

"If men were angels, no government would be necessary. If angels were to govern men, neither external nor internal controls on government would be necessary. In framing a government which is to be administered by men over men, the great difficulty lies in this: you must first enable the government to control the governed; and in the next place oblige it to control itself." -- James Madison, The Federalist No. 51

"As I would not be a slave, so I would not be a master. This expresses my idea of democracy. Whatever differs from this, to the extent of the difference, is no democracy." -- Abraham Lincoln

So long as one refuses to realize the genius of the Declaration of Independence, he (or she) is welcomed to the doom of dependency and serf mentality.

EX DEO LIBERTAS -- Liberty is from God. Use it or loose it, cousin.

-- Uncle Ralph of New London, Connecticut - USA

[JOHN CHUCKMAN, TORONTO]

Uncle Ralph,

"No end justifies such means" are the only words of yours with which I can agree.

But somehow I feel that when you wrote them you had a rather limited application in mind.

I do think most reasonable people concerned for human rights and dignity would say they apply also to the three million corpses America left in Vietnam.

And to the stinking pools of Agent Orange bubbling through the land, crippling babies to this day.

And to the million or so innocent dead you'll leave in Iraq.

And to the children hopelessly crippled by cluster bombs.

And to fifty years of brutality on behalf of American policy, dozens of colonial wars and the overthrows of even democratic governments who fail to toe the line.

Lord Acton said it best, and America passed into the second part of his dictum many decades ago.